Vettel vs Ricciardo 2014

[Juzh]

Not really sure why this thread is open and ham v ros is not.

[mnmracer]

...

After all the points I made arguing nothing more than the fallacy of talking drivers down because they have the fastest car and you still want to boil it down to me saying Hamilton's not good (never said so, don't agree) or Vettel's god (never said so, don't agree)? How can you possibly miss the point by such a country mile?

An often heard argument, very recently used in this very thread, is "Vettel's not as good as Lewis and Fernando because he had the fastest car and LewFer didn't".If you don't subscribe to that, we have no argument. I repeatedly called bullshit on that argument. Not on Vettel, not on Hamilton, THAT argument.

So please, before you respond, (1) check if we actually disagree and (2) check if what you claim I said is something I actually said.

[turbof1]

It's getting weird, guys...

[bhall]

Man, it's been weird.

[FoxHound]

Ok, so the question I posed remains.

[JimClarkFan]

I think this is how most people view the situation




sorry guys, I know I should rise above it... to quote the cookie monster... ''me could not help meself.''

Uhm yeah bhall, except you're arguing a strawman. I haven't seen anyone claim that Vettel is god and his titles are the proof....

I have not checked your join date...but I'm guessing you are new.

[djos]

I think you've nailed it Jim!

He must be a lurker as his join date is 2006!

[mnmracer]

...

The problem is that you seem to have trouble differentiating between a disagreement with either the argument used, or the double standard in the way it's used, and whatever conclusion at the end. Aside from a few people left and right, most of us seem kind of on the same page, but you always read "that is a flawed argument" as "OMG Vettel the rocksorz", and instead of arguing about the allegment of the flawed argument you start to argue the straw man.

[mnmracer]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BofWYNRCIAA06-_.jpg

I think this is how most people view the situation

http://i59.tinypic.com/24o6kpz.png

Again, you can have your opinion, but of course correctness of something is not a popularity contest, so I'm not sure what you think to accomplish by saying "most people". I think few well-informed people would simply dismiss the impact of this in a year that has seen the most radical changes in over 20 years.

[mnmracer]

Vettel has enjoyed percentage wise, more dominant machinery than any of his current peers for a longer period of time in his shorter career.

Would you agree with this assessment?

That assessment is simply a statement of fact. I haven't seen anyone disagree with that. What I have seen people disagree with is sub-statements like "Vettel has had a dominant car in every single race". Disagreeing with that incorrect sub-stamement has NOTHING to do with the statement the way you put it there.

Like I said, the disagreement comes from conclusions some draw from those facts, the flaws in the argument or flaws in sub-statements. You can't say " oh, you're an idiot for disagreeing on statement A", when all I said is that I disagree with statement B.

TL;DR
Stop mixing arguments with the statements they belong to.

[bhall]

Aside from a few people left and right, most of us seem kind of on the same page, but you [are a meanie]....

Not even ten minutes later...

...you can have your opinion, but of course correctness of something is not a popularity contest, so I'm not sure what you think to accomplish by saying "most people".

Beautiful. =D>

Dude, you've got your head shoved so far up Sebastian Vettel's ass that if he ever came to a sudden stop, you'd be able to taste what the man had for breakfast.

A word of advice: those who can't stomach technical reality should probably stay away from technical forums, because we're quite often allowed to speak in absolutes regardless of anyone's emotional response. I don't profess to have all the answers, but I know enough to recognize that engineering tends to be a real bitch that way.

So, if it ever seems like I ignore certain arguments or repeat myself over and over again, it's mostly because some folks simply refuse to learn.

[SpecialCircumstances]

See bhall, this is what I'm talking about. Yes, you can say mnmracer is a staunch Vettel defender. But what exactly has he said in his recent posts that shows that makes you say "you've got your head shoved so far up Sebastian Vettel's ass that if he ever came to a sudden stop, you'd be able to taste what the man had for breakfast."

He hasn't really disagreed with the core of what you're saying and neither do I for that matter. On the other hand you seem to be misunderstanding what he's saying.

You have to make the distinction between what is someone's own faulty logic and when he is using someone else's faulty logic to make a point.



@JimClarkFan, my join date is irrelevant. I have been reading english speaking F1 forums for more than 15 years so I am well versed in what is being said in general

[turbof1]

I agree here. Mnmracer does aknowledge the car has a huge deal to do with it. I don't see how trying to find underlying intentions is going to add to the topic. He's trying and actually succeeding to be constructive, so let's not take somebodies past into consideration.

[FoxHound]

I agree here. Mnmracer does aknowledge the car has a huge deal to do with it. I don't see how trying to find underlying intentions is going to add to the topic. He's trying and actually succeeding to be constructive, so let's not take somebodies past into consideration.

Did you see the question I posed? And the answer?

[turbof1]

I agree here. Mnmracer does aknowledge the car has a huge deal to do with it. I don't see how trying to find underlying intentions is going to add to the topic. He's trying and actually succeeding to be constructive, so let's not take somebodies past into consideration.

Did you see the question I posed? And the answer?

Yes, he said it was a fact and doesn't find anybody disagreeing with it. Some sideline comments after it doesn't change that the answer, simplified, was yes. So please take it and let's continue on.