2013 Japanese GP - Suzuka

[SectorOne]

Is it simple Fanboyism?
It could be (and I even tend to believe that) that Vettel whoops Hamilton's a** in the RB9 while Hamilton might again whoop Vettels posterior in the Merc (which is also well conceivable).

Fanboyism as in being a fan of the fastest driver in F1 today then yes i´m guilty.

For the latter. I´m not talking about different cars. I want to see Hamilton and Vettel in equal machinery i.e. the same car.
Give it a year or two and look at the results. I´m not making any predictions as who will beat who so until that day comes i´ll stick with my pure belief that Hamilton is the fastest man in F1 today.

I might be wrong, i might be right, i´d like to find out.

I don´t care about wins, poles, points, titles, fastest laps, grand prix´s, years in F1 etc, i want to know who´s the man at the end of the day.

This is why i´m super excited to see Kimi and Alonso in the same car, it´s going to be amazing whoever comes out on top.
To me this is like in MMA when you get super fights, or like Boxing, Mayweather vs pacquiao (although that one might have faded a bit now)

Champions vs Champions, Senna vs Prost, Hamilton vs Alonso, Alonso vs Kimi. Incredible imo.

[henra]

For the latter. I´m not talking about different cars. I want to see Hamilton and Vettel in equal machinery i.e. the same car.

I'm afraid, I didn't get my message across.
In my opinion it is not just the question to measure them in equal machinery (that's a given if you really want to compare Drivers), but the additional question would have to be: which equal machinery?
To put it bluntly as an example:
Both in RBX/Y/Z with the RB9 specific traits => Vettel faster than Hamilton,
Both in W0X/Y/Z with Merc specific traits => Hamilton faster than Vettel.
What now?

[SectorOne]

Point taken,

What now?

Less variables

That´s far less of an issue then having two cars made from different teams with different philosophies.
With two equal cars you have equal opportunity as a base at least.
And it´s the best tool we have to compare drivers in the same car, same time of day, same downforce, etc.

[komninosm]

A bit like that, they could have forced some options on RB, depending on decisions and timing, "decide" not really, it's RB after all

They had the choice to fight for second in some ways already pointed out several times here. Now they're trying to explain it and it sounds weird, I mean the reasoning and options are OK, "decision making" is weird:
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/110644
"I don't think there was any way we could have won it." Hindsight, fine. "But what we could have done, and we discussed it at the time, was to forget about Vettel and assume he was going to beat us anyway so go longer on that second stint."
Exactly, pitstops timing.
"We may then have beaten Mark. But at the time we said, let's just try and win. Let's give it a go."
That's the weird part, what were they expecting to happen actually, pace on hards change suddenly out of no where? Plus top speed, degradation/length of the stint. So they risked losing better position and points for impossible win? At least it's good to see that questioning their tactics wasn't baseless.

I agree with you. Lotus had a brainfart. They should have stayed out and screwed up Vettel's race and allowed Webber to win it. They had a chance at second if they matched Vettel's stops.
Either that or go 3 stops and try to always block Webber (but they'd have to pit stop same laps or 1 lap earlier. Well tbh they'd have to do that to block Vettel too in plan A.

[Jonnycraig]

I don´t care about wins, poles, points, titles, fastest laps, grand prix´s, years in F1 etc, i want to know who´s the man at the end of the day.

He's currently driving to his 4th WDC.

There is a lot more to being a racing driver than being fastest over one lap, although coincidentally the talk of the paddock at the weekend was the pace of Vettel's KERSless second Q3 lap.

[SectorOne]

He's currently driving to his 4th WDC.

There is a lot more to being a racing driver than being fastest over one lap, although coincidentally the talk of the paddock at the weekend was the pace of Vettel's KERSless second Q3 lap.

his fourth? I had no idea honestly..
[...] For me it's about the fastest, Senna in particular when talking of all-time.
But titles is nice although it's not the end all be all, this is why teambosses (and probably the vast majority of f1 fans) did not consider Vettel as the best driver that year,
It has to do a lot with how you do your seasons, like 2011, superior car yes, but flawless performance = well deserved best driver of the year.

[Sevach]

Hakkinen was badly beaten by Coulhard in 2001 by about 30 points. He came 5th when Coulhard came 2nd in WDC. Sometimes there enough information to make a good deduction. I don't think we really need pair Schumacher and Coulhard to see what would have happened.

And you still don´t have a clear Schumacher/Hakkinen comparison.
I´m sure you have a couple more examples put forth but unless you can prove Hakkinen and Schumacher actually did share the same car in F1 it´s going to be for nothing and an unanswered story of what if.

Or you could look at the way Schumacher punched above his weight class when his car wasn't anything special (96,97,98) or when they both had competitive cars (2000) Schumacher won 9 races to Hakkinen's 4 (Coulthard 3, Barrichello 1), and make something of an educated guess.

[...] Btw, Mika and Ayrton did share a car for a few races, Hakkinen sprung a surprise in Portugal Qualy, but ultimately Ayrton was wildly superior.

And no, i don't think Mika belongs in the Senna/Schumacher level.

[SectorOne]

[...] Again you can do all kinds of conparisons when they had different cars but it's at the end of the day guesses.
As far as senna and hakkinen, that wasn't my opinion, i said some people at mclaren are adamant he was infact the quicker driver.
why they have that opinion i dont know, its interesting though.

[Jonnycraig]

[...] For me it's about the fastest, Senna in particular when talking of all-time.

Alonso has often stated that Giorgio Pantano is the fastest driver he's ever raced with. By your notion he's up there with the all time F1 greats.

[SectorOne]

Alonso has often stated that Giorgio Pantano is the fastest driver he's ever raced with. By your notion he's up there with the all time F1 greats.

By my notion or by your made up notion? When did they share a car in F1 together? Is it really that hard?
We are both writing in plain English here..

He did not do too well against Heidfeld back in the day and he´s the prime example of what´s wrong with F1´s driver employment.
So what can we go by? Opinions and guesses which is the opposite of why i started this discussion (which turned out to be a case of correcting 3 different people on basic sentences)

If you dig through history you´ll find many gems who could have potentially been all-time greats in F1 but they never drew the longest stroke, always the short one.

The fact that Alonso said that is the same thing regarding Mclaren engineers and Hakkinen.
Very interesting but it stops there unfortunately.

He was certainly a diamond in the dirt.

[Mandrake]

The fact that Alonso said that is the same thing regarding Mclaren engineers and Hakkinen.
Very interesting but it stops there unfortunately.

But when Hamilton and Alonso bootlick each other saying they're both the best drivers that are out there, just hampered by too bad material which is outdriven every single time, it doesn't stop there? - That is rather more interesting

[SectorOne]

But when Hamilton and Alonso bootlick each other saying they're both the best drivers that are out there, just hampered by too bad material which is outdriven every single time, it doesn't stop there? - That is rather more interesting

Not sure what you mean really. I think it´s only logical for them to talk in that manner about themselves.

One was a newly crowned double world champion, got a rookie as a teammate who beat him marginally.
The only thing you can take from that is holy sh*t, now that´s quite impressive for a rookie.

And in Hamilton´s case, well he´s not alone in thinking Alonso is the best. I´d say the majority of F1 fans share exactly the same opinion. Not everyone measures greatness in how many titles you have.

Vettel to them is uncharted territory.
They are both impressed with him clearly but they know what´s on the horizon for Vettel and they know that´s where you show your worth. When the car is brilliant it´s easy to look good and dominant.
When the car is quick but not really there, that´s when people take note of what you really bring to the table.

No doubt he´s a fantastic driver, but i bet they see him as untested at the moment.
And in my opinion a perfectly valid opinion to have.

[komninosm]

Nigel Mansell has the sweet spot in my heart. He has one of the most interesting stories and behaviors.

[raymondu999]

That's fine and all, but what's that got to do with Suzuka?

[flynfrog]

your favorite driver sucks. Mine is at least 11% better because my uncles cousins brother said that a driver that raced against him said that he was one of the greats.