The 2016 F1 WDC Title Dumpster Topic

[Stradivarius]

Congratulations to Rosberg on a well deserved title. He did not put a foot wrong during these last races and did exactly what he had to do.

It's funny how Hamilton fans claim that Rosberg doesn't deserve the title because Hamilton has one race win more and qualified better, but suffered from reliability issues. I seem to remember that Hamilton's first title in 2008 came under those exact circumstances. Massa won 6 races to Hamilton's 5. Massa suffered an engine failure while in the lead in Hungary with 3 laps to go. Massa was the victim of his team messing up the pitstop in Singapore, sending him away with the fuel hose attached. And in the end Massa lost the title to Hamilton by 1 point.

Rosberg has had a very good season and all the complaints that he didn't beat Hamilton during these last 4 races are quite irrelevant. After Rosberg beat Hamilton in Japan, all he had to do was to stay out of trouble and finish 2nd and that is exactly what he has done. It's easy for Hamilton to beat his team mate when the team mate can afford to be beaten. In the first 17 races it was much harder for Hamilton to beat Rosberg. Besides, Hamilton did have fresher engines at the end.

Regarding the Mercedes team's messages to Hamilton, it is as simple as this: Mercedes has worked hard to get where they are and right now they have the fastest car. Both titles were in the bag and all they could add to that was race victories and possibly 1-2-finishes. Of course, the team wants to cash in these great results while they still can. After this race no one knows who will be fastest and Mercedes may not have the chance to win races for a long time. They would have looked very stupid if Vettel had been able to pass both Mercedes drivers and claim the race win, especially if next year Mercedes falls behind Ferrari and Red Bull and no longer can fight for race wins. And since Rosberg's third place was safe anyway, it would all have been for nothing for Hamilton as well.

[Restomaniac]

Well I am not saying Mercedes eventually did the best job concerning marketing, or it was in their own interests the best decision (my opinion is they should not have intervened as a 1-2 in Abu Dhabi would not made a big difference anyway). I am merely telling the decision making process did not involve concern for the drivers.

Ultimately, Mercedes did went a bit too light with the conflict of interest. They could have prevented it by swallowing their interests for a moment and not demanding anything of Hamilton. That way Hamilton neither would had to ignore orders, and consequently the controversy that is now harming Mercedes' interests, would have been avoided.

This brings us back to the issue.
Hamilton's reaction was always going be what happened obviously. That takes no thinking at all.
With there being question marks already Merc sticking their noses in was always going to make a controversy. I therefore am struggling to see the 'business' reason you mention for it because the controversy far outweighs another easy 1-2 and was always going to.

We both agree that the Merc management are not stupid so unless they are incredibly naive you have question their thinking surely?

[turbof1]

Well I am not saying Mercedes eventually did the best job concerning marketing, or it was in their own interests the best decision (my opinion is they should not have intervened as a 1-2 in Abu Dhabi would not made a big difference anyway). I am merely telling the decision making process did not involve concern for the drivers.

Ultimately, Mercedes did went a bit too light with the conflict of interest. They could have prevented it by swallowing their interests for a moment and not demanding anything of Hamilton. That way Hamilton neither would had to ignore orders, and consequently the controversy that is now harming Mercedes' interests, would have been avoided.

This brings us back to the issue.
Hamilton's reaction was always going be what happened obviously. That takes no thinking at all.
With there being question marks already Merc sticking their noses in was always going to make a controversy. I therefore am struggling to see the 'business' reason you mention for it because the controversy far outweighs another easy 1-2 and was always going to.

We both agree that the Merc management are not stupid so unless they are incredibly naive you have question their thinking surely?

Remember these decisions are never made afterwards were we had hours to reflect on the outcome. It was made in the middle of a hectic race, without the power of hindsight.

[Restomaniac]

Well I am not saying Mercedes eventually did the best job concerning marketing, or it was in their own interests the best decision (my opinion is they should not have intervened as a 1-2 in Abu Dhabi would not made a big difference anyway). I am merely telling the decision making process did not involve concern for the drivers.

Ultimately, Mercedes did went a bit too light with the conflict of interest. They could have prevented it by swallowing their interests for a moment and not demanding anything of Hamilton. That way Hamilton neither would had to ignore orders, and consequently the controversy that is now harming Mercedes' interests, would have been avoided.

This brings us back to the issue.
Hamilton's reaction was always going be what happened obviously. That takes no thinking at all.
With there being question marks already Merc sticking their noses in was always going to make a controversy. I therefore am struggling to see the 'business' reason you mention for it because the controversy far outweighs another easy 1-2 and was always going to.

We both agree that the Merc management are not stupid so unless they are incredibly naive you have question their thinking surely?

Remember these decisions are never made afterwards were we had hours to reflect on the outcome. It was made in the middle of a hectic race, without the power of hindsight.

True but we need to remember that both Paddy Lowe and Toto Wolff have personally commented on the ongoing situation. They can't then pretend they were not aware of what consequence those actions would bring. All F1 commentators highlight that nothing is done by chance and discussions are ongoing all the time. So Hamilton's engineer and Paddy Lowe didn't go rogue and do it on their own.

Are we supposed to believe that nobody in that top group (who must have had that discussion) saw this coming? Sorry I don't buy it.

[turbof1]

True but we need to remember that both Paddy Lowe and Toto Wolff have personally commented on the ongoing situation. They can't then pretend they were not aware of what consequence those actions would bring. All F1 commentators highlight that nothing is done by chance and discussions are ongoing all the time. So Hamilton's engineer and Paddy Lowe didn't go rogue and do it on their own.

Are we supposed to believe that nobody in that top group (who must have had that discussion) saw this coming? Sorry I don't buy it.

Well, I think opinion splits here. In my personal view, Toto, Niki and/or Paddy found a 1-2 Abu Dhabi being in jeopardy and were only concerned by that. I think in that moment they were not considering how Hamilton would act on it or what it meant to him. I really do not believe they were concerned with any controversy in the media. In that moment, only the race and the outcome for Mercedes mattered. Discussions are ongoing all the time about what is going on the track, not outside.

There is nothing that indicates a conspiracy against Hamilton here, my friend.

[ScottB]

True but we need to remember that both Paddy Lowe and Toto Wolff have personally commented on the ongoing situation. They can't then pretend they were not aware of what consequence those actions would bring. All F1 commentators highlight that nothing is done by chance and discussions are ongoing all the time. So Hamilton's engineer and Paddy Lowe didn't go rogue and do it on their own.

Are we supposed to believe that nobody in that top group (who must have had that discussion) saw this coming? Sorry I don't buy it.

Well, I think opinion splits here. In my personal view, Toto, Niki and/or Paddy found a 1-2 Abu Dhabi being in jeopardy and were only concerned by that. I think in that moment they were not considering how Hamilton would act on it or what it meant to him. I really do not believe they were concerned with any controversy in the media. In that moment, only the race and the outcome for Mercedes mattered. Discussions are ongoing all the time about what is going on the track, not outside.

There is nothing that indicates a conspiracy against Hamilton here, my friend.

Pretty much, they were focused on the race in isolation, or certainly more than the bigger picture.

Wolff's comments range from him being annoyed, to understanding it was Lewis' only chance. In the end they'll probably make a statement more in line with the latter than the former.

Staying out of it completely would have had media reports more focused on Nico winning the title, which would be better PR for Mercedes than more stories about the relationship between the drivers, team orders and so on...

[Restomaniac]

True but we need to remember that both Paddy Lowe and Toto Wolff have personally commented on the ongoing situation. They can't then pretend they were not aware of what consequence those actions would bring. All F1 commentators highlight that nothing is done by chance and discussions are ongoing all the time. So Hamilton's engineer and Paddy Lowe didn't go rogue and do it on their own.

Are we supposed to believe that nobody in that top group (who must have had that discussion) saw this coming? Sorry I don't buy it.

Well, I think opinion splits here. In my personal view, Toto, Niki and/or Paddy found a 1-2 Abu Dhabi being in jeopardy and were only concerned by that. I think in that moment they were not considering how Hamilton would act on it or what it meant to him. I really do not believe they were concerned with any controversy in the media. In that moment, only the race and the outcome for Mercedes mattered. Discussions are ongoing all the time about what is going on the track, not outside.

There is nothing that indicates a conspiracy against Hamilton here, my friend.

I see your point but with regard to Hamilton's response. We need to remember that Hamilton had already given a polite but firm 'NO' before Paddy issues his orders so there was never going to be a better reaction when he is the told to do it. That again takes no thinking as that is obvious.
I don't buy that they didn't expect Hamilton's reaction. Lowe will have known of Hamilton since 1995 when Hamilton signed on the McClaren young driver scheme and certainly since 2007 when he became a full driver. Let's us not forget they pretty much moved to Merc at the same time as well so that's just short of a decade. Lauda as a former F1 driver should have known damn well the reaction too.

I take it that you think Merc were naive in their judgement?
Paddy Lowe has been in the sport since 1987 and Nikki Lauda since 1971. Wolff has raced since 1992 and has been in F1 since 2009 They know all to well how the sport works.

Lowe and Wolff have already broached the other issue as I have said. There is too much knowledge of the sport and the issues for it to be put down to 'didn't see it coming'.

[Mattchu]

Well done to Rosberg, he`s won a world championship in a 2 horse race (as were Hamiltons last 2), lets hope there are more than 2 in it next year...

Mercedes top brass imo should have left well alone with regards to team orders or asking a driver to speed up so he can guarantee a 1-2 when the drivers season long aim means he only has one tactic! I suppose the trouble is if the papers didn`t have something like this to make a meal of they would go back to instances such as Spain/Spa and point out "issues" there. They have to write about something after all, and what`s better than a nice juicy bit of controversy

It`ll soon be forgotten about, lets pray that next year Renault, Ferrari and Honda can produce engines that match the Merc and the chassis guys can do similar. Then we might see a championship that isn`t as boring as the last few have been i.e. More than one team is fighting for it and it isn`t just an internal battle...

p.s. I`m not saying the races were boring, although a lot of the action can be attributed to one young lad and the 2 'go-kart friends' running each other of the road.

[turbof1]

True but we need to remember that both Paddy Lowe and Toto Wolff have personally commented on the ongoing situation. They can't then pretend they were not aware of what consequence those actions would bring. All F1 commentators highlight that nothing is done by chance and discussions are ongoing all the time. So Hamilton's engineer and Paddy Lowe didn't go rogue and do it on their own.

Are we supposed to believe that nobody in that top group (who must have had that discussion) saw this coming? Sorry I don't buy it.

Well, I think opinion splits here. In my personal view, Toto, Niki and/or Paddy found a 1-2 Abu Dhabi being in jeopardy and were only concerned by that. I think in that moment they were not considering how Hamilton would act on it or what it meant to him. I really do not believe they were concerned with any controversy in the media. In that moment, only the race and the outcome for Mercedes mattered. Discussions are ongoing all the time about what is going on the track, not outside.

There is nothing that indicates a conspiracy against Hamilton here, my friend.

I see your point but with regard to Hamilton's response. We need to remember that Hamilton had already given a polite but firm 'NO' before Paddy issues his orders so there was never going to be a better reaction when he is the told to do it. That again takes no thinking as that is obvious.
I don't buy that they didn't expect Hamilton's reaction. Lowe will have known of Hamilton since 1995 when Hamilton signed on the McClaren young driver scheme and certainly since 2007 when he became a full driver. Let's us not forget they pretty much moved to Merc at the same time as well so that's just short of a decade. Lauda as a former F1 driver should have known damn well the reaction too.

I take it that you think Merc were naive in their judgement?
Paddy Lowe has been in the sport since 1987 and Nikki Lauda since 1971. Wolff has raced since 1992 and has been in F1 since 2009 They know all to well how the sport works.

Lowe and Wolff have already broached the other issue as I have said. There is too much knowledge of the sport and the issues for it to be put down to 'didn't see it coming'.

You can take it as simply not being worried about the fallout in the news. Perhaps naive indeed in hoping Hamilton would abandon his plans and increase pace in this particular case. I think they probably thought it was not going to work, but tried to give it a go anyway because a 1-2 was in jeopardy.

Maybe you should also read this article:
http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/race- ... wn-854925/

It puts further emphasis on that number one goal of Mercedes is finishing 1-2, even saying they don't care in which order:

"The very plain objective of an F1 team is to win every race, and ideally get a one-two. And it was clearly expressed to the drivers," he added.

"We don't mind which order it's in, but we're after a one-two, and we were not going to distort those objectives in favour of the drivers' World Championship."

I understand your viewpoint: you find it's too simple, too naive to believe that Mercedes did not took into account how Hamilton would react into consideration. Fact of the matter is that they probably purposely did so because they feel the team stands above the driver and drivers should obey instructions. They feel personal goals have to make room for the team's goal. It's working a bit with arrogancy actually, but I also think they have good reason to do so. 1,500 people make a massive effort all year long to get the best result achievable. Hundreds of millions are being put in the team. The drivers get glory and are being burried underneath royalties. From Mercedes their standpoint, they cannot accept insurbodination and need to have their drivers to obey and expect those to do so. Hamilton giving a polite no therefore was never going to cut it for Mercedes.

[GPR-A duplicate2]

People are using the excuse of, "Mercedes wanted 1-2" and that is why ordered Lewis to go faster. What had stopped Nico from qualifying on pole and get ahead? Why couldn't he have tried to make a move on Lewis? It was expected from Lewis to behave like a gentleman, but it was ok to make life easier to Nico. What logic is that? Anyone remember China 2015? Nico was asking his team to tell Lewis to go faster, on a track where it was so easy to pass. Reverse the situation and put Lewis behind Nico in Abu Dhabi, would he have waited for Nico to go faster? Might not have won, like last year, but would have definitely pressurized to force the issue and win the title with authority. That is how you earn respect, races and titles, not by having your team tell your team mate to go faster. Ridiculous.

Monaco 2016 would have been a major farce if they wouldn't have let Hamilton go. Imagine, if Ric would have won the race by over minute or two because Merc didn't wanted to make way for Hamilton. Great shame for the dominant team. Ric was 18 seconds ahead when finally Merc decided let him go. It's a track where, a largely under performing W03 won the race, ahead of fast charging RB8s. Nobody can overtake there. Even a single stopping Lewis could manage to hold back a fast charging Ric this year. Again, Nico showed that how bad he is in wet conditions and he was ultra cautious and glazed his brakes by not putting enough heat into them.

The moment Lewis started charging in Russia, he was asked to slow down. The reason, water loss in engine. Seriously? But with a miracle, both cars finished 1-2. Astonishing.

In Silverstone, Nico couldn't hold back a charging, inexperienced teenager and lost the position and had no confidence when the track was wet. He had to wait for it dry and make a move.

In Baku, the team didn't wanted to risk providing information to Lewis to change the engine modes, but in Silverstone they were quick to assist Nico when he faced an issue and incur a penalty. Where is the fairness? If they would have immediately assisted Lewis in Baku, he would have probably be second and even a penalty could have made him a 3rd.

What would have happened if there was another Nico instead of Lewis in Mercedes this year in Silverstone, Monaco and Brazil? A Deserving Champion?

[Pierce89]

Still no article on why Rosberg finished 2nd in the last 4 races...i thought last year that Hamilton lost his edge because he came 2nd in the last three races! But at least we got to see what a straightforward battle between the two would have been had Hamilton not blew 3 engines...oh yeah Nico's car management, i forgot!! Well done Nicola!! =D>

P.S.1 Must feel a bit harsh for Hamilton this year (a bit like Senna 89)...i expect him to shutter some morale next year! Watch out where Rosberg will be after at last clinching a title...Hill, Villeneuve, Raikkonen and maybe Button comes to my mind!!
P.S.2 At least now Hamilton is going to have another World Champion within the team...unlike Vettel and Schumacher who only had No2s'!! Maybe he'll take a bit more credit if he wins any more championships while they are teammates!

Well its pretty clear Nico was just getting home, like Lewis did last year.

[marvin78]

Hamilton is an employee. Employees should stick to the employer rules. It's that simple.

[GPR-A duplicate2]

Hamilton is an employee. Employees should stick to the employer rules. It's that simple.

An employee who gets paid the highest and more than the group chairman, for nothing?

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/ ... deliveries

Why even race? Put in his contract like that of Barrichello that, "YOU SHALL LOSE THE CHAMPIONSHIP TO YOUR TEAM MATE". End of the story.

[turbof1]

Hamilton is an employee. Employees should stick to the employer rules. It's that simple.

An employee who gets paid the highest and more than the group chairman, for nothing?

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/ ... deliveries

That would be saying like a football player should not be listening to his coach. I think in 90% of the cases the coach receives less then a random player in his team.

Not that I necessarily agree that Hamilton should above all have obeyed. I simply understand Mercedes their reasoning.

[Just_a_fan]

I'm going to throw something else in the ring: had Mercedes needed the 1-2 to secure the manufacturers' title, would Hamilton have tried the backing up trick?

My view is that in that situation he would have played the team game. Had he not, he would have deserved all of the censure being cast his way today. The team would rightly have been angry and sanctions would have followed, rightly again.

But this wasn't the situation. Hamilton felt let down earlier in the season and fought back to contention not once but twice. Toto and Paddy misjudged the situation in the heat of the moment. I'm sure everyone concerned is thinking about it in a more considered fashion today.

I expect some bland statements from the team and Hamilton in the coming days. Then they'll get on working for next year.