Thoughts on 2012 tyres?

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strad
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Joined: 02 Jan 2010, 01:57

Re: Thoughts on 2012 tyres?

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Dont take this the wrong way, but I believe you are reminiscing far too fondly.
How is this less aero dependant than what we have today
2006???
HAHAHAHAHA
Tell ya what...find ya a nice trucker clocking along at about 80mph,,,get up about 4-6 feet back and you can experience about a quarter of what it feels like in a race car. The front end feel like it's gonna jump off the ground and you have very little grip. I don't think most people know how scary it feels.
We really should get off this aero kick...It's been like crack cocaine for the designers and now we can't ween them off of it...or the fans.
To achieve anything, you must be prepared to dabble on the boundary of disaster.”
Sir Stirling Moss

GrizzleBoy
GrizzleBoy
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Joined: 05 Mar 2012, 04:06

Re: Thoughts on 2012 tyres?

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strad wrote:
Dont take this the wrong way, but I believe you are reminiscing far too fondly.
How is this less aero dependant than what we have today
2006???
HAHAHAHAHA
Tell ya what...find ya a nice trucker clocking along at about 80mph,,,get up about 4-6 feet back and you can experience about a quarter of what it feels like in a race car. The front end feel like it's gonna jump off the ground and you have very little grip. I don't think most people know how scary it feels.
We really should get off this aero kick...It's been like crack cocaine for the designers and now we can't ween them off of it...or the fans.
Hahah I do this every time I'm on the motorway to save myself diesel :lol: ]

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JohnsonsEvilTwin
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Joined: 29 Jan 2010, 11:51
Location: SU 419113

Re: Thoughts on 2012 tyres?

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Strad,

like I intimated, purists will hate it. I'm still sceptical to be honest about it, but I just hate it when 1 car/driver combo walks it the entire season. As happened quite a few times the last 20 years.
Currently though, as I said, any one of 6 or 7 teams can win a race. On merit.

The tyres are the same for everyone. How you car uses it is a different story.

But then these are things a driver can change. Setup, driver feedback, analysis etc are all tools a driver has at his disposal to make the car work.
Sometimes its a lottery, but with time this will diminish as teams understand the rubber better.

@Bhallg2k
Would a cars wake not hamper the trailing car? The term "dirty air" has been used countless times by engineers, team principals commentators and many online guru's.
Inbox me so as not to incur any Mod intervention for off topic discussion.... :D
More could have been done.
David Purley

Pup
Pup
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Joined: 08 May 2008, 17:45

Re: Thoughts on 2012 tyres?

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JohnsonsEvilTwin wrote:On merit.
Debatable. Were the tires consistent, then sure - they'd be a challenge for the teams to figure out. But as they are, their race to race performance seems random. Even that wouldn't be too bad if tire degradation didn't trump most every other factor of the race.

Every sport includes an element of luck. But at the moment at least, F1 seems to be mostly luck and little sport.

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JohnsonsEvilTwin
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Re: Thoughts on 2012 tyres?

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Yet that degradation appears the same for most teams.
More could have been done.
David Purley

bhall
bhall
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Joined: 28 Feb 2006, 21:26

Re: Thoughts on 2012 tyres?

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JohnsonsEvilTwin wrote:@Bhallg2k
Would a cars wake not hamper the trailing car? The term "dirty air" has been used countless times by engineers, team principals commentators and many online guru's.
Inbox me so as not to incur any Mod intervention for off topic discussion.... :D
This can easily be on-topic.

I suppose I shouldn't say that dirty air is a myth, because, of course, it's real, and it does affect the ability of a car to closely follow another. What it doesn't do, however, is adversely affect overtaking; that's the myth.

Overtaking is all about one car being faster than another. Nothing else matters.

In a hypothetical situation, Car A could leave behind a golden wake of perfectly serene air that's ripe for making downforce, but Car B will never be able to overtake unless it's faster than Car A. Otherwise, cars of similar performance tend to belong on the same spot of the track at about the same time, which we all know cannot happen. That's how processions start.

Watch some of the video I posted earlier of the 1985 European Grand Prix. Rosberg (Keke) simply could not get by Senna (Ayrton) in the opening stages of the race, despite the relatively immature aerodynamics of the time. He just wasn't fast enough.

The Pirelli tires negate the claustrophobic regulations that produce virtually identical cars by assuring that it's nearly impossible for Car A and Car B to have the tires working equally well within their extremely narrow window of optimum performance. The absurdly dynamic nature of tire degradation then induces the performance differentiation required for overtaking.

This is why overtaking has exploded over the last two years. If dependence on aerodynamics is really the bane of overtaking as it's often made out to be, the game would have changed in 2009 rather than two year later.

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Forza
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Joined: 08 Sep 2010, 20:55

Re: Thoughts on 2012 tyres?

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Some facts about 2012 tyre managment from Bob Bell.
"Tyres are a very complex thing and there's a very complex chemistry involved in producing a racing tyre," Mercedes technical director Bob Bell explains. "Just because they're black and round we've taken them for granted for too long, but there's some very clever chemistry in getting them right for racing purposes and it's entirely possible within those boundaries that you can produce a tyre that requires a lot of understanding to get the best out of it."

"If you have a very small operating band, a very small target, the people that have to try and hit that sweet spot are facing a very difficult job in order to do so," Bell adds. "Clearly that means you can have very good consistency [from the tyre], but if that consistency produces a small window then it means the user of the tyres has a slightly tougher time.

"It's more to do with how we use the tyres, how we bring them in on an out-lap for example if we're going for one timed lap and if we're going for multiple timed laps how we condition them between those laps - fast, slow, fast for example. There's that operational side to it and then there's the side of the setup of the car and what you need to do to affect the way that the tyres heat up, the way that they're loaded and to get the best out of them.

"We're fighting on several fronts. We're fighting on wear because you need the tyres to last a certain time and we're fighting on degradation to make sure they deliver the grip over the period of that life. Managing both of those is the tricky balancing act for these tyres. That's why we're seeing variability in grids and race positions this year."

"You set the car up to try and deal in the best possible way with what you foresee coming in qualifying and what you foresee coming in the race," Bell explains. "The ultimate objective is to bring home the most championship points so you bias that towards what you need for the race, and qualifying is a step in that process."

"I think it's fair to say that you can set the car up perhaps to be better in qualifying conditions because you know the ambients you expect from that and you then might be slightly disadvantaged for the race, or vice-a-versa. I think we all know the sort of things we need to do to try and account for variations in track temperature, but if those track conditions change you can be in trouble. Again that's because it's such a narrow operating window we have to get those tyres in."

Source

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raymondu999
54
Joined: 04 Feb 2010, 07:31

Re: Thoughts on 2012 tyres?

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strad wrote:
Dont take this the wrong way, but I believe you are reminiscing far too fondly.
How is this less aero dependant than what we have today
2006???
HAHAHAHAHA
Tell ya what...find ya a nice trucker clocking along at about 80mph,,,get up about 4-6 feet back and you can experience about a quarter of what it feels like in a race car. The front end feel like it's gonna jump off the ground and you have very little grip. I don't think most people know how scary it feels.
We really should get off this aero kick...It's been like crack cocaine for the designers and now we can't ween them off of it...or the fans.
That's only if your road car is actually producing downforce - on a roadcar it robs your car of lift (given that the car is producing lift anyways) and you'll actually be more stable in said slipstream.

I drove an Isuzu Panther in clean air at about 80mph once - and the whole car started bobbing up and down like a boat on BIG waves, as the thing sort of oscillated between getting aero lift, and gravity's pull. I pulled in behind a land cruiser and, despite the same speed, everything was a lot more stable.

Dirty air is indeed very real though - a very good example I remember this year is China. Kimi was able to hold the line in Turn 7 when Vettel passed him. He was slow - but he could hold it. Then Vettel cut back into the line and all of a sudden Kimi just went straight on.
失败者找理由,成功者找方法

xpensive
xpensive
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Re: Thoughts on 2012 tyres?

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Pup wrote: ...
Every sport includes an element of luck. But at the moment at least, F1 seems to be mostly luck and little sport.
With Lotus' performance and a Williams winning the race, I'm not so sure it's luck either.
"I spent most of my money on wine and women...I wasted the rest"

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strad
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Joined: 02 Jan 2010, 01:57

Re: Thoughts on 2012 tyres?

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From the Mark Ortiz paper posted by RacingManiac
So wings are highly attractive. They just present problems when two or more cars are running in
close proximity. When cars are nose to tail, the front downforce generating element of one is in the
wake of the rear downforce generating element of another. When wing packages are regulated by
rules that assume that front and rear wings are inevitable, the stage is set for races with reduced
passing.....
The wings needed clean air to work well, yet the cars created large wakes that denied
a following car clean air. This meant that rather than speeding up in another car’s draft, a car slowed
down, at least in the turns. That discouraged passing....
Therefore, there is a strong case for prohibiting wings, tunnels, and other downforce devices relying
on free air, altogether. Can this actually be done? It is done, pretty much, in Formula Ford, in
midgets, and in unwinged sprint cars. It really is possible to regulate bodywork tightly enough to
largely eliminate downforce. The quality of racing in these classes speaks for itself.
To achieve anything, you must be prepared to dabble on the boundary of disaster.”
Sir Stirling Moss

Crucial_Xtreme
Crucial_Xtreme
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Location: Charlotte

Re: Thoughts on 2012 tyres?

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Formula One's Goldilocks Enigma
Goldilocks was hungry. She tasted the porridge from the first bowl.
"This porridge is too hot!" she exclaimed.
So, she tasted the porridge from the second bowl.
"This porridge is too cold," she said.
So, she tasted the last bowl of porridge.
"Ahhh, this porridge is just right," she said happily and she ate it all up.
(Goldilocks and the Three Bears)

Something curious is happening with the tyres in Formula One this year. At first sight, it appears that if you have too much downforce, then you'll put too much energy into the tyres, and they'll suffer thermal degradation. Conversely, if you have too little downforce, then the car will slide around and/or fail to warm its tyres sufficiently. If, however, your level of downforce is 'just right', then you'll be able to optimise your speed over a race distance. Perhaps teams such as Genii and Williams find themselves in exactly this zone of habitable downforce.

The truth will be far more complex than this, and it may be that Williams and Genii were smart enough to realise at an early stage the importance of working backwards from the characteristics of the Pirelli tyres to a specification of mechanical and aerodynamic requirements.

It was Peter Wright, I think, who pointed that, unlike aircraft, the control surfaces of a racing car are provided, not by the wings, but by the tyres. The ultimate logical development of this is not merely sophisticated, team-specific tyre modelling software, but simulation tools which integrate such tyre modelling with CFD.

It is the interaction between the solid viscoelastic control surfaces, the forces generated by the viscous fluid flowing over the solid geometry of the car, and the transmission of those forces by visco-elastic spring-damper systems, which will become the key to extracting maximum performance.


via McCabe

bhall
bhall
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Joined: 28 Feb 2006, 21:26

Re: Thoughts on 2012 tyres?

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xpensive wrote:
Pup wrote: ...
Every sport includes an element of luck. But at the moment at least, F1 seems to be mostly luck and little sport.
With Lotus' performance and a Williams winning the race, I'm not so sure it's luck either.
I wonder what effect F1's newfound parity is going to have on their planned IPO this summer.

marcush.
marcush.
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Joined: 09 Mar 2004, 16:55

Re: Thoughts on 2012 tyres?

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I think it is just too obvious with williams and F1 s floatation ..Formula 1 needs to be increasing the audience in the light of the companies near future .keeping all important factors happy...The tyre situation has obviously led to a situation of RB completely losing their adavantage..the reason for dropping TV spectator numbers as is the wide belief.

xpensive
xpensive
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Re: Thoughts on 2012 tyres?

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The upcoming IPO is another angle to it of course, what's more xiting to the market than close racing, however artificial?

Other than Williams and Lotus getting special treatment, I also suspect Sauber and perhaps even Alonso...oooops!
"I spent most of my money on wine and women...I wasted the rest"

marcush.
marcush.
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Joined: 09 Mar 2004, 16:55

Re: Thoughts on 2012 tyres?

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so the tyres are very delicate in how to use and exploit them.
But why would this work especially well for Kimi and Grosjean and Maldonato and Alonso and not for Massa and not for Button?
The underlying logic is not really there ,at least to me when performance seems NOT to depend on how the driver uses the tyre and at the same time it is of paramount importance.
Speaking of operating windows :
In each and every race now one or two teams have found the sweet spot in the race and funny every time it was a different one....That´s not matching with experience and knowledge gained....you would expect as time goes on more and more people finding the area where you need to be and the teams eeking closer and closer to the optimum.
My guess:without getting to know HOW teams get hold of their tyre allocation for the weekend you wonder how performance can be shifted through the field randomly
-when will Timo Glock have his lucky day and win the first time? -