Vettel vs Ricciardo 2014

[bhall]

I say we all bail on this and make it the first time in quite a while that a driver-centric thread didn't get locked. Or if it has been locked previously, that it doesn't happen again. I think it would be a glorious victory for humanity. Might even cure cancer; you never know.

EDIT: Goddammit. I hate it when I start a new page.

[djos]

Lol

*wanders off to burn custom KS rom for his Amiga 500*

[SpecialCircumstances]

The problem often in these discussions, is that people argue half with things said here and half with things said by others elsewhere in another time. We are all guilty of it at times.

No one disagrees that Vettel has enjoyed dominant machinery. Simple fact. The reason you see people still get defensive about it when mentioned, even though they agree, is that this simple and harmeless in itself fact is often used to draw illogical conclusions and used in false equivalences. It is so often used as PART of (ludicrous) arguments to attack Vettel that people become conditioned to react to it.

[rayden]

Group hug guys

[turbof1]

(Now let's rejoice we didn't had to lock this thread and get back on it).

Some comments from Christian Horner:

“Daniel was amazing, considering where he was after the first lap,” Horner said when asked by this writer. “We got a little bit lucky with the puncture for Raikkonen. But his pace was very good. He looked after the tyres well and pushed hard at the end of the race. He was certainly than Lewis, but no chance to overtake. It was certainly the closest we’ve been. So we’re getting there. It’s the first time this year we’ve been racing a Mercedes, so it’s definitely a step in the right direction.”

Regarding Vettel’s Monaco disappointment he said: “Obviously this weekend was pretty tough on him. He’s smart enough to recognise that, so of course, like any sportsman he’s going to be frustrated when things go wrong. There will be time to take a breath and reflect. He’ll just keep working away at it, it’s the nature of who he is that he never gives up, he’ll keep his head down and keep working harder and harder.”

http://adamcooperf1.com/2014/05/27/chri ... n-january/

[Mandrake]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BofWYNRCIAA06-_.jpg

I think this is how most people view the situation

http://i59.tinypic.com/24o6kpz.png

A bit late to the party, but all the people thinking that your "corrected" chart is the way to view the situation towards pace difference Vet vs Ric should immediately sign off, delete their accounts and never come back.

It may have an effect on integration and loyalty within the team, but that's about it. The cars are completely different, thus the kilometer based view is the way to go for.

Also: Talking about experience: How many F1 seasons do you need to be comfortable with the car's speed etc.? 2 seasons? 3 seasons? The more exp (years) you have, the better your racecraft, sense for strategy and assessment of certain situations gets. If you never were quick, you will not get quick after 10 years of F1.

[mnmracer]

Put Marcus Ericsson in a Mercedes and I guarantee he will make the podium at his first attempt.

No doubt, but will he win? I guarantee you not (unless Chilton's in the other car, or HamilBerg retires).

And that's why there is still more to it than just the car. That is why one Red Bull and one Ferrari were fighting for the championships in '10 and '12, and the others were not. That is why Chilton is considered a pay-driver and why Bianchi is waiting for a Ferrari seat to open up.

And that is why Formula One will still always be a test of driving skill [-o<

But why do you get upset whenever someone claims Vettel is not the best driver in f1? All other arguments aside, why is it you involved in these arguments every time? I think if specialcircumstances actually knew the history here, he might understand a little better why you draw the responses you do.

So you've basically read nothing I wrote?
Everything about arguing fallacies of arguments, sometimes flat-out lies, words being put in my mouth, and you still try and boil it down to "why do you get upset whenever someone claims Vettel is not the best driver in f1?". I can not answer a question that exists only in your mind. I will gladly answer a question on things I actually do, but this is not one of them.

[Pierce89]

No doubt, but will he win? I guarantee you not (unless Chilton's in the other car, or HamilBerg retires).

And that's why there is still more to it than just the car. That is why one Red Bull and one Ferrari were fighting for the championships in '10 and '12, and the others were not. That is why Chilton is considered a pay-driver and why Bianchi is waiting for a Ferrari seat to open up.

And that is why Formula One will still always be a test of driving skill [-o<

But why do you get upset whenever someone claims Vettel is not the best driver in f1? All other arguments aside, why is it you involved in these arguments every time? I think if specialcircumstances actually knew the history here, he might understand a little better why you draw the responses you do.

So you've basically read nothing I wrote?
Everything about arguing fallacies of arguments, sometimes flat-out lies, words being put in my mouth, and you still try and boil it down to "why do you get upset whenever someone claims Vettel is not the best driver in f1?". I can not answer a question that exists only in your mind. I will gladly answer a question on things I actually do, but this is not one of them.

Nice obfuscation, but we all know your history any time Vettel is unfavorably compared with any other driver. You came to this very thread to claim Ricciardo hasn't been clearly out driving Vettel this season.

[Cam]

But why do you get upset whenever someone claims Vettel is not the best driver in f1? All other arguments aside, why is it you involved in these arguments every time? I think if specialcircumstances actually knew the history here, he might understand a little better why you draw the responses you do.

He's passionate, like other members are about their favourite driver. I know from personal experience on here, that saying one negative thing about certain drivers, starts wars. So the road goes both ways. It's a touch hypocritical to up-hold standards when others do not abide by them themselves.

Vettel isn't the 'greatest' driver ever. Neither is Alonso, Ricciardo, Hamilton or any other current driver. That will only be determined once they no longer drive, in hindsight. That's how it works.

When I look at the "greats', almost all have won a WDC in different teams. Now, that isn't the sole indicator of greatness, but it's certainly something that is considered. Vettel himself has said that even if he goes to another team, people will still say negative things - he just has that personality (arguably deservedly so).

Vettel in the RB6,7,8 & 9 - was great. Shumacher's 5 x WDC's in those Ferrari's - was outstanding. Alonso's 2 x WDC is great, etc, etc. We need to move on from the 'greatest' tag and realise no WDC is a walk in the park - even Button's.

[mnmracer]

But why do you get upset whenever someone claims Vettel is not the best driver in f1? All other arguments aside, why is it you involved in these arguments every time? I think if specialcircumstances actually knew the history here, he might understand a little better why you draw the responses you do.

So you've basically read nothing I wrote?
Everything about arguing fallacies of arguments, sometimes flat-out lies, words being put in my mouth, and you still try and boil it down to "why do you get upset whenever someone claims Vettel is not the best driver in f1?". I can not answer a question that exists only in your mind. I will gladly answer a question on things I actually do, but this is not one of them.

Nice obfuscation, but we all know your history any time Vettel is unfavorably compared with any other driver. You came to this very thread to claim Ricciardo hasn't been clearly out driving Vettel this season.

So you have indeed read nothing I wrote, or choose to ignore it.

So if I point out the fallacy in an argument, it's because of Vettel.
If I point out someone doesn't have their facts straight, it's because of Vettel.
If I point out half the claims you contribute to me are false, it's because of Vettel.
If I contribute facts to a discussion, it's because of Vettel.

No way is it possible that it's about fallacies in arguments, unstraight facts or a lack of facts. No, it's all because of Vettel.

[Cam]

@mnmracer - you need to calm down, or this thread will be locked. Just accept you can't agree with some people and move on. The more you try to get some of the people to see your point, the more it looks forced.

Make your point - back it up with what you think is evidence and debate the facts. Finger pointing "he said, she said" back and forwards is helping no one.

[turbof1]

I'll be splitting topics later. It's clear the subject drifted into a general "is it the car, is it the driver" topic, so nothing to do anymore with Vettel vs. Ricciardo. Since the discussion is still at a good level, aside some "you only said that because it's vettel" bickering which will be removed, it deserves its own thread. Will do so once I find a moment.

[xpensive]

I'll be splitting topics later. It's clear the subject drifted into a general "is it the car, is it the driver" topic, so nothing to do anymore with Vettel vs. Ricciardo. Since the discussion is still at a good level, aside some "you only said that because it's vettel" bickering which will be removed, it deserves its own thread. Will do so once I find a moment.

An interesting moderation indeed, when can I have my most handsome driver thread back?

[djos]

As a resident hardcore Webber fan (who knew right?), I wonder if Mark could have won the WDC if his RedBull was as reliable as Seb's?

IMO he threw away a WDC on his own by binning his car in the wet in Korea (plus a bad weekend in Abu dahbi), but his luck with KERS overall was horrendous!

Seb seems to have inherited the bad luck now which is highly ironic and Dan is getting perfect cars!

[mikeerfol]

As a resident hardcore Webber fan (who knew right?), I wonder if Mark could have won the WDC if his RedBull was as reliable as Seb's?

IMO he threw away a WDC on his own by binning his car in the wet in Korea (plus a bad weekend in Abu dahbi), but his luck with KERS overall was horrendous!

Seb seems to have inherited the bad luck now which is highly ironic and Dan is getting perfect cars!

Well.. karma is a bitch