Renault race-fixing at Singapore 2008

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donskar
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Re: FIA to investigate Alonso's win in Singapore

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There IS another side to this case:
"The fact that we put a plan for blackmail [action] against the two Piquets, means I think we are very confident that the truth will come out," said Briatore.
Enzo Ferrari was a great man. But he was not a good man. -- Phil Hill

xpensive
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Re: FIA to investigate Alonso's win in Singapore

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Whatever one thinks of Briatore, he's no fool, I find it difficult to fathom that he should trust the brat to shut up.

I think the brat did it on his own, advised by his punk father with Symmond's silent consent.
"I spent most of my money on wine and women...I wasted the rest"

Pup
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Re: FIA to investigate Alonso's win in Singapore

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donskar wrote:There IS another side to this case:
"The fact that we put a plan for blackmail [action] against the two Piquets, means I think we are very confident that the truth will come out," said Briatore.
Yes, but you'd think Flavio would be crying libel, not blackmail.

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jddh1
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Re: FIA to investigate Alonso's win in Singapore

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timbo wrote:
jddh1 wrote:I see how dirty this entire mess is. It's a shame.
Fact is it can't NOT be dirty. From the moment the word from Piquet made into the public domain --- did hit the fan.
Indeed. Really sad.

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jddh1
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Re: FIA to investigate Alonso's win in Singapore

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Pup wrote:
donskar wrote:There IS another side to this case:
"The fact that we put a plan for blackmail [action] against the two Piquets, means I think we are very confident that the truth will come out," said Briatore.
Yes, but you'd think Flavio would be crying libel, not blackmail.
True. Blackmail means that what he's saying is true, but he's using what he knows to get a drive. If he sued for libel then there would've been hope that he was lying.

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gcdugas
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Re: FIA to investigate Alonso's win in Singapore

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BTW, what does anyone think about Max dropping this little bit out?
Q. The world has changed since the McLaren case. There is not a team who could swallow a 100 million dollar fine now, which would see Renault walk away...

MM: To put that in context, the halfway stage was the September meeting when we had the emails and we were able to prove clearly that people other than the one man within McLaren had knowledge.

So first of all they turned up at the first meeting and didn't tell the truth, and secondly, they had made use of this material. We didn't know to what extent. Now the normal thing to have done would have been to exclude them from the 2007 championship.

If we'd done that, nobody anywhere in the world would have criticised. On top of that, we learned when we fully investigated in December, information that it was available to the people doing the 2008 car. We've an email from the chief engineer on the '07 car and the chief engineer on the '08 car referring to their mole in Ferrari. It's there. We found it.

We also found an email saying that Ron had given instructions not to use quick shift until the FIA aggro is over, so it was right deep in the company.
The FIA must have this because it is so easily verifiable... so why would Max let it out? What is his motivation? To prove that the FIA's treatment of Mac was warranted and proportionate? Reluctantly I, gcdugas, Max's biggest fan, think Max was placing the Renault issue in context and paving the way for whatever result comes about. I think Max was actually being fair minded and restrained. Since these Mac accusations are so easily verifiable, I take them to be true and by extension I must therefore applaud Max and the FIA for not trumpeting them when they first came to light in December. RD's head on a platter likely had much more to do with this than it had to do with Lie-gate. It seems the FIA actually acted professionally in handling this. And it also seems that the FIA acted professionally in the crash-gate by not making a splash of it in July when NP came to them.

It doesn't pain me to applaud the FIA in this because it shows me that there is some health remaining.... some things are actually done right. Previously I wrote:
OK, the FIA should look into it but do they have to do so in such an indiscreet fashion? If asked by the press, the FIA should just say that they are aware of charges and accusations and leave it at that. They should not even acknowledge they are conducting an investigation. This works both ways, it protects the reputation of the innocently accused and at times it helps investigators gather evidence that might otherwise be destroyed because the investigative actions could tip someone off. Police often execute simultaneous search warrants and arrests to this end. Don't even let the guilty know there is an investigation going on if at all possible. Question key people simultaneously to preserve evidence and prevent them from colluding in their cover stories. Is it too much to ask? Be discrete.
It appears I was a bit hasty. It appears that Quest, which certainly has integrity, has been on this case for six weeks before the story broke at Spa. And it only broke because there were so many people interviewed by then at the Spa race that it could no longer be contained. I applaud the FIA for being discrete and professional. I applaud them for sitting on the Mac aggro December thing too. Now I challenge them to find the leaker in their midst, who is acting against the interest of the FIA, of F1, of Renault and of other involved parties.

Read it here first, write it down because you may not see it again... I gcdugas, Max Mosley's greatest critic, applaud his, and the FIA's handling of these matters thus far. Who knows if they will continue on this path but we all hope so. The FIA must find the leaker within their midst. And if it is Max, which I don't think for a minute, but if it was... then I retract all the good things I just said about him.
Innovation over refinement is the prefered path to performance. -- Get rid of the dopey regs in F1

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gcdugas
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Re: FIA to investigate Alonso's win in Singapore

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I read what Briatore said... about all the things that happened after lap 14 and I must agree. There was a second SC brought out by Barichello, there was Massa's fuel hose snafu which demoted him, FA was nearly the fastest in FP1 and FP2, when the SC went in he opened a six second lead in just 3-4 laps... hardly what one would expect if he had a slower car.

I don't think Flabby is an angel but if one was going to fix a race you wouldn't do it on lap 14. Anything could happen after that. There is no way to be reasonably assured that the edge you "cheated for" would hold up with that much racing remaining.

And then there is the matter of the pace FA and Renault was showing in the last six races. I just don't see why cheating would be done even if one was inclined to do so and had no ethical reservations about it.

To me the mysterious thing is Pat Symonds... he must have talked to Piquet about it before the race but what do you make of that? Suppose NP had initiated the notion and PS rightly shot him down and said "Never, what are you [NP] thinking? Get you head screwed on right boy."... suppose that, well what might his interrogation by the FIA contain?

Who leaked that? Certainly not NP's camp as they had no possession of it. That leak HAD TO come from the FIA. Even Joe Saward points to as much in his blog and Saward is extremely skitterish about libel/slander etc.
The World Council dossier went out a week ago and the first information about the case began to appear earlier this week. It is fairly clear that the leaks are coming from one of the members of the council, but the important question is why it is happening and who is gaining from it.
If that piece was released by someone within the FIA, then the FIA must identify the leaker and make sure he isn't sitting in judgement of the matter as the person clearly acted in a biased manner and could not be trusted to render a fair verdict.

I just don't think any competent person within F1 circles would fix a race on lap 14. It is way too early. I am not doubting they wouldn't do it because of ethical reasons, most of them, Briatore, R Dennis, Luca, certainly Jean Todt and others, are capable of anything, I just doubt they would do it that early in the race because of effectiveness reasons.
Innovation over refinement is the prefered path to performance. -- Get rid of the dopey regs in F1

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WhiteBlue
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Re: FIA to investigate Alonso's win in Singapore

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Again the story unfolds quite the way you would expect it to unfold. Naturally the objective of the campaign is cutting down Flabby. The stewards protocols heavily incriminate Symmonds, but he protects Flabby against his own interest. What does it tell us? Certainly there is a good explanation of all these facts viewed in context. Lets call it a hypothesis. And here it goes.

Piquet is right on the facts in his submission to the FIA. Flabby learns of his move and considering his personal wealth and Symmond's age offers Symmonds a deal. If he takes the fall he will be privatly rewarded by a substantial amount of money which will see him retire in happyness.

Symmonds makes self incriminating statements and protects Briatore by refusing to answer deatiled questions. Briatore also lies to his boss and starts legal action in an effort to show he is not responsible.

This is only a hypothesis but I think it has a high degree of probability considering the character of all participants in the scandal.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

Pup
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Re: FIA to investigate Alonso's win in Singapore

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It's entirely possible. The only thing that might change that would be the threat of criminal prosecution - in Singapore of all places.

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WhiteBlue
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Re: FIA to investigate Alonso's win in Singapore

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Pup wrote:It's entirely possible. The only thing that might change that would be the threat of criminal prosecution - in Singapore of all places.
Oops, the rattan for Flavio? I bet Max would love to have that done.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

Tiakumosan
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Re: FIA to investigate Alonso's win in Singapore

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Is the telemetry data from here real?

http://axisofoversteer.com/blog/documents/Fit Of PK.pdf

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WhiteBlue
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Re: FIA to investigate Alonso's win in Singapore

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http://www.gulf-times.com/site/topics/a ... rent_id=29

A source quoting Mosley saying that Piquet will have immunity as Alonso had in Stepneygate if it turns out he told the truth. He also confirms that he sees race fixing as more severe than cheating. He makes a reservation this being his personal opinion. The WMSC will have the last word.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

pgj
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Re: FIA to investigate Alonso's win in Singapore

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If we suppose that the race was fixed and NPj got his 2009 contract as a result. It does not make any sense that the pact would be broken by one side when the risks would be all too apparent to everyone involved. If betting syndicates were involved, and so far that is one area that has not been associated with this scandal, it would be easier to accept that large bets had been placed on Nando to lead the race. However, as already stated, trying to fix a race so early in a race does not appear to be a plausible strategy.

This has the same smell about it as the events that resulted in Ron leaving F1. It is beginning to bear the hallmarks of a vendetta. Who cares? It is only more of F1's reputation being flushed away.

I have a degree of sympathy for NPj. He has always had his father there to fight his corner for him. Whether he wanted it or not, NP has always been there. Emotionally, I am not convinced that NPj was equipped for the environment that he found himself in at Renault. Under normal circumstances NPj could have expected a degree of impartiality from his manager. NPJ was not afforded that luxury. He found himself caught between an overbearing parent and a manager who had lost confidence in him. It does not excuse the part that he played in this scandal. for whatever reason he is embroiled in it and deeply. The 21st may bring closure to this sorry affair but so long as WMSC Hearings are held in private, scandals will continue to rumble on to become sagas.
Williams and proud of it.

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WhiteBlue
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Re: FIA to investigate Alonso's win in Singapore

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Actually the last MWSC hearings on cheating have been published.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

nae
nae
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Re: FIA to investigate Alonso's win in Singapore

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I dont understand the 'trying to fix the race so early' statement of a few posters
all the teams spend huge effort in qualifying to give their drivers the best start possible, effectively trying to fix the race before it starts, so to speak

a race is hugely variable as it unfolds and if one was going to attempt a fix it, it would be best to do it early as it is (slightly) more predicable. little point in getting your No 2 driver to pre arrange a crash on lap 40 only if x, y or z has happened first. NPj is not exactly a thinking on his feet type driver like schumy, prost, senna etc
..?