Flexible wings controversy 2010

[xpensive]

...
whiting has without a doubt heard of these measurng methods ..

I wouldn't take it to the bank. The man has a long history of indecisiveness, mass-dampers, DDDs and what not.
A spannerman.

[bill shoe]

ringo- Very good concept and explaination.

One thing seems clear-- There is something going on with the wing bending mechanism that does not depend on vertical static loading. The actual mechanism must be related to the longitudianl drag force or the torsion in the wing or something. I am very skeptical that a simple doubling of the static vertical force in tech inspection will change anything.

The new test lacks any longitudinal or other non-vertical forces on the front wing. This seems very odd given that there are already longitudinal force tests on the rear wing. Why the FIA reluctance to go this direction with the new front wing test?

I predict the Red Bull wing will continue to show similar flex during the next race.

[myurr]

I believe that with today's knowledge in anisotropic materials, the only way for the FIA to keep up would be to test respective body-component in the wind-tunnel. But then you have the technical limitations of the FIAs representative in these matters, Charlie Whiting, who is little more than an x-Brabham spannerman.

You set him up against the Neweys, Simons and Gascoynes, ah well.

Install three mandatory sensors in the wing, one in the central section one in each wing tip, that measure the height above the ground using a laser. Teams use similar devices during testing to measure ride heights, I'm sure that they could find a way to incorporate them into the wings. Use the SECU to record the heights at all three locations throughout the race and report it back to the FIA. Another couple of sensors could be used strategically on the floor to make sure that it's not flexing.

Alternatively, and maybe more practically, they could use a flex sensor placed along the full width of the wing and length ways along the floor to make sure they're not flexing too much. Something like these: http://www.active-robots.com/products/s ... orce.shtml

[marcush.]

I believe that with today's knowledge in anisotropic materials, the only way for the FIA to keep up would be to test respective body-component in the wind-tunnel. But then you have the technical limitations of the FIAs representative in these matters, Charlie Whiting, who is little more than an x-Brabham spannerman.

You set him up against the Neweys, Simons and Gascoynes, ah well.

Install three mandatory sensors in the wing, one in the central section one in each wing tip, that measure the height above the ground using a laser. Teams use similar devices during testing to measure ride heights, I'm sure that they could find a way to incorporate them into the wings. Use the SECU to record the heights at all three locations throughout the race and report it back to the FIA. Another couple of sensors could be used strategically on the floor to make sure that it's not flexing.

Alternatively, and maybe more practically, they could use a flex sensor placed along the full width of the wing and length ways along the floor to make sure they're not flexing too much. Something like these: http://www.active-robots.com/products/s ... orce.shtml

but this would mandate the measurements for both sides plus a reference ,to be able to quantify things ...toó much ..(car rolls ,heaves, pitches ,you got the variable of tyre vs pressure + pickup+ wear...)
you can only reference to the car tub

[delsando]

They could use actuators like Electroactive polymers (EAP).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electroact ... e_Polymers

This is dependent an electrical charge for deformation

[xpensive]

Or...remove the front-wing altogether, outlaw anything outside 250 mm from the centre-line, ahead of the front wheels CL.

What do you think WB?

[747heavy]

very crude (but effective) way to stop the flex down of the wing.
Let them run a mandatory cable/fibre from the nose cone to the wing tips.

FIA supplied part, cost < 5$



I know it´s very low tech, but get´s the job done.
Similar to the mandatory slot gap seperator (bracket) they demanded some years ago to be used in the rear wing.

just kidding ........

Have a nice day

[marcush.]

I like that... two strings....cool...

[747heavy]

on a more serious note,
some of you may like to have a read here:

http://www.aer.bris.ac.uk/research/morp ... oring.html

[Richard]

If this is a section with asymmetric stiffness (or axiometric materials) then a vertical force will also induce the lateral effects ... unless the vertical load is placed exactly on the shear centre. So the teams design the shear centre to be under the testing point.

Meanwhile the centre of pressure is somewhere behind the pylon centreline on the middle of those massive surfaces. That creates torsion, hence the magic force to push the wing down.

As pointed out by others, the torsion force on that multi wing element is largely applied to the upper element. The leading lower element attracts little force. Hence plenty of scope to create a couple from the torsion, hence vertical deflection.

The point is that if the FIA apply the test load to the front of the wing and then the rear of the wing, then one of those loads (or both) will induce torsion. That torsion will induce the same lateral effects as drag. That will induce the droop if the axiometric/assymetric theory is correct.

[donskar]

All this intelligence and sincerity expended in an effort to make sure ingenuity is stamped out everywhere it appears.

Not joking here: why not a mandatory "template" nose and front wing? Have Dallara or Lola or whoever design, build and distribute it to the teams. Then the teams will secretly modify them, so distribute "legal" noses on the grid before the start of the race. Ridiculous idea, I know, but so is the endless witch hunt to stamp out the elements that should make F1 what it is supposed to be -- leading edge thinking and design, new ideas, new materials, etc.

[Italiano]

The test in Spa...they have to test the wings of all the cars. It would be stupid to do the test on RB and SF, saying ILLEGAL, only to then find out the other teams don't pass that as well since the load is too much.

[wesley123]

For the sake of argument wesley, how would this heating be performed and what is the composite matrix which responds to it?

Well, by using electrical wires you can easily heat the object, as you know electricity comes with heat, so using the right voltage can generate the wing to loose rigity.

Well, now i am thinking about it, such an idea is pretty much bull, The mechanics would get shocks from it, though i think it has an possibility, but dont ask me how:p

[Patrickl]

very crude (but effective) way to stop the flex down of the wing.
Let them run a mandatory cable/fibre from the nose cone to the wing tips.

FIA supplied part, cost < 5$

Red Bull already tried that

[747heavy]

I know

I just think that at the time, they where measureing the loads and load vectors, they
are going to see at different speeds
So the would know how stiff/flexible they have to make their wing.