2024 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

[Emag]

If RB can make their less loaded front wing (compared to others) flex and be even less loaded it’s still a win all round isn’t it.

Their wing already flexes, but the RedBull car has been designed in such a way that it requires a low load front wing. What that means is that the flaps are relatively flat compared to some others, which means there's not much room to flex, because the flaps are already at a near "horizontal" position in respect to the ground.

Just look at this image for comparison (scaling is wayyy off, but not relevant to just see the difference) :



The RedBull front wing is so much more unloaded in the middle and in the outboard section, there is nothing to flex there because it's already "flat". Look at the McLaren how much more angle they got in theirs, especially the top flaps. It's why the flex is more emphasized on the onboards for them, because the flaps have more room to move.

[chrisc90]

But it all depends how and where the other wings are flexing doesn’t it.

Are you saying that McLaren for example, should be allowed more flex because they have a higher loaded wing?

The principle is the same.

High load wing becomes a medium load wing under flex

Medium load wing becomes a low load wing under flex.

There could be more to RB’s concern than the upper wing element flexing.

[Emag]

But it all depends how and where the other wings are flexing doesn’t it.
Are you saying that McLaren for example, should be allowed more flex because they have a higher loaded wing?
The principle is the same.

No, I am saying that physically-speaking, the McLaren wing will flex more because it has more "room for movement". You're not really "allowing" anything to anyone. If the wing passes the current bend tests by the FIA (and it seems they're happy with it), then this type of wing will flex more than the RedBull wing due to physics. Assuming even materials and whatnot.

High load wing becomes a medium load wing under flex
Medium load wing becomes a low load wing under flex.
There could be more to RB’s concern than the upper wing element flexing.

Yes actually, that is the main idea behind having flexing front wing elements. And it's not like RedBull somehow missed this idea when designing the car. In fact RedBull used it extensively in the previous regulation set.

But they have purposefully designed the car (since 2022) with a low-load front wing taken into consideration. And props to them, it's actually impressive. When you utilize "gimmicks" like flexing elements, you're always gonna give up (some) consistency because it is something that changes by a variable amount depending on conditions (wind speed, air density, turbulence etc ...). Which means you won't get the "ideal" conditions you see in the wind tunnel 100% of the time. Nevertheless, the tradeoff works out in this particular case.

As I mentioned, this is something that RedBull had no issue with before. Designing cars this way is perhaps one of the reasons why their car has been so consistent race-pace wise in this regulation set. But now that gaps are getting tight, they tried to take some of the competitor's advantage away by complaining to the FIA. It's what teams do all the time to be fair, nothing against RedBull.

My point in all of this discussion is, just because FIA "cleared" the competitors, doesn't mean there's some sort of low hanging fruit for RedBull to exploit in this area. This is an idea which they undoubtedly know how to exploit, however the design philosophy of their car does not allow them to easily take advantage of it as much as it does to competitors.

[AR3-GP]

If RB can make their less loaded front wing (compared to others) flex and be even less loaded it’s still a win all round isn’t it.

Their wing already flexes, but the RedBull car has been designed in such a way that it requires a low load front wing. What that means is that the flaps are relatively flat compared to some others, which means there's not much room to flex, because the flaps are already at a near "horizontal" position in respect to the ground.

You could also interpret it the other way. The "reason" that Mclaren have a heavily loaded front wing is probably because it flexes so much at speed. More load at the front on low and medium speed, without any drag consequence at high speed due to the flex.

Red Bull's wing was designed with a different philosophy that is less dependent on flex. If you are allowed to flex the wing so much, then it makes more sense to go with a higher loaded front wing because it cost you nothing at the end of the straight when it flexes and sheds drag.

[organic]

Mercedes started with a car that had a wing without a top flap at all and now they exploit it as much as McLaren. It's hard to speculate what the team can and can't change imo.

We can't conclude why decisions have been made prior - RB philosophy has been efficiency first for past few years. Low drag front wing is clearly aligned with that; with new guidance on the extensive flexing being allowed the same low drag can be achieved with a higher load wing. We can assume they'll be working on their own interpretation for this year's car as even a marginal improvement will be worth it in such a contracted grid. Sure it almost certainly won't be as potent as McLaren's, but RB can take inspiration from both merc and mcl and come up with their own ideas

[AR3-GP]

Mercedes started with a car that had a wing without a top flap at all and now they exploit it as much as McLaren.

A great point. This must have been Allison's "how could we be so dumb" moment. The front wing was all wrong.

[Emag]

If RB can make their less loaded front wing (compared to others) flex and be even less loaded it’s still a win all round isn’t it.

Their wing already flexes, but the RedBull car has been designed in such a way that it requires a low load front wing. What that means is that the flaps are relatively flat compared to some others, which means there's not much room to flex, because the flaps are already at a near "horizontal" position in respect to the ground.

You are thinking about it backwards. The reason Mclaren have heavily loaded front wing is because it flexes so much at speed. Red Bull's wing was designed with a different interpretation. If you are allowed to flex the wing so much, then it makes more sense to go with a higher loaded front wing because it cost you nothing at the end of the straight when it flexes and sheds drag.

But you're pulling back to this narrative where somehow RedBull doesn't know how much the wings are allowed to flex but every other team on the grid knows.

It is a purpose design choice by RedBull not to go for it. The reason why, only they can tell you, but of course it would be backed up by actual data which leads to a better balance for them this way.

[AR3-GP]

But you're pulling back to this narrative where somehow RedBull doesn't know how much the wings are allowed to flex but every other team on the grid knows.

It is a purpose design choice by RedBull not to go for it. The reason why, only they can tell you,

In every other era when Red Bull tried flexible wings, they had to change them mid-season due to complaints by competitors. It happened to them in 2021. It happened to Aston Martin last year.

[Emag]

But you're pulling back to this narrative where somehow RedBull doesn't know how much the wings are allowed to flex but every other team on the grid knows.

It is a purpose design choice by RedBull not to go for it. The reason why, only they can tell you,

In every other era when Red Bull tried flexible wings, they had to change them mid-season.

That only tells you they overdid it on previous eras, not that they don't know where the limit is currently. They all undergo the same tests, and they all look at the same regulation book.

Edit: The idea that RedBull wouldn't know how to make a front wing that bends within compliance in both the stress test performed by the FIA and while on load on-track, is somehow baffling to me.

[AR3-GP]

But you're pulling back to this narrative where somehow RedBull doesn't know how much the wings are allowed to flex but every other team on the grid knows.

It is a purpose design choice by RedBull not to go for it. The reason why, only they can tell you,

In every other era when Red Bull tried flexible wings, they had to change them mid-season.

That only tells you they overdid it on previous eras, not that they don't know where the limit is currently. They all undergo the same tests, and they all look at the same regulation book.

They don't know "where the limit is". No one does. You can pass the test, and the FIA decides to change the test arbitrarily.

We all know why the FIA didn't change anything this season. It's not in the interest of a competitive season to reign the others in. If Red Bull was the only one flexing their front wings this year and they still had a performance advantage, the FIA wouldn't have thought twice about changing the test and forcing Red Bull to change. No different to why they couldn't bring themselves to punish the driver that was 2nd in the championship for slamming into another car deliberately on Saturday.

[bluechris]

If RB can make their less loaded front wing (compared to others) flex and be even less loaded it’s still a win all round isn’t it.

Their wing already flexes, but the RedBull car has been designed in such a way that it requires a low load front wing. What that means is that the flaps are relatively flat compared to some others, which means there's not much room to flex, because the flaps are already at a near "horizontal" position in respect to the ground.

Just look at this image for comparison (scaling is wayyy off, but not relevant to just see the difference) :

https://i.imgur.com/eh5rs9c.png

The RedBull front wing is so much more unloaded in the middle and in the outboard section, there is nothing to flex there because it's already "flat". Look at the McLaren how much more angle they got in theirs, especially the top flaps. It's why the flex is more emphasized on the onboards for them, because the flaps have more room to move.

With a more flex ability of the wing they could gain in low speed corners where they have problem atm. The wing can be more loaded but in medium and high speeds it can go to the position it has now.

[venkyhere]

They don't know "where the limit is". No one does. You can pass the test, and the FIA decides to change the test arbitrarily.

We all know why the FIA didn't change anything this season. It's not in the interest of a competitive season to reign the others in. If Red Bull was the only one flexing their front wings this year and they still had a performance advantage, the FIA wouldn't have thought twice about changing the test and forcing Red Bull to change. No different to why they couldn't bring themselves to punish the driver that was 2nd in the championship for slamming into another car deliberately on Saturday.

BIngo. I was going to type something similar to this. You nailed it. FIA is the Roman emperor who shows thumbs-up or thumbs-down, looking down into the well of the colosseum - they don't care for the rules as long as the fight is brutal and bloody, providing 'entertainment'. FIA/steward decisions are not governed by 'fairness' or 'consistency'. It has never been.

[chrisc90]

Heres a ghost car comparison between Lando and Max. I know there was someone on the forum who was saying that Lando takes a different corner exit to Max. So hopefully that should show it a bit more in detail.

[chrisc90]

They don't know "where the limit is". No one does. You can pass the test, and the FIA decides to change the test arbitrarily.

We all know why the FIA didn't change anything this season. It's not in the interest of a competitive season to reign the others in. If Red Bull was the only one flexing their front wings this year and they still had a performance advantage, the FIA wouldn't have thought twice about changing the test and forcing Red Bull to change. No different to why they couldn't bring themselves to punish the driver that was 2nd in the championship for slamming into another car deliberately on Saturday.

BIngo. I was going to type something similar to this. You nailed it. FIA is the Roman emperor who shows thumbs-up or thumbs-down, looking down into the well of the colosseum - they don't care for the rules as long as the fight is brutal and bloody, providing 'entertainment'. FIA/steward decisions are not governed by 'fairness' or 'consistency'. It has never been.

Problem the comes when RBR do the same, and a TD is issued mid-season, it blows it all away and those that RBR have copied off in terms of flex, will also be nerfed.

[Wouter]

Heres a ghost car comparison between Lando and Max. I know there was someone on the forum who was saying that Lando takes a different corner exit to Max. So hopefully that should show it a bit more in detail.

.
This can't be seen outside the UK. Can it be seen elsewhere?