2022 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

[Xyz22]

not a good look

Absolutely clear how the new TD "destroyed" the F1 - 75.

[JPower]

I'm not addressing the question of who won Silverstone. I'm addressing the question of who the faster driver is. Sainz winning silverstone is no indication of his pace relative to Leclerc as the OP tried to claim.

I haven't seen one person say Sainz was faster than Leclerc in recent posts.

[JPower]

I don't get the Sainz bashing honestly. There are many issues with the team currently but the drivers surely aren't a priority? Leclerc is obviously faster than Sainz, pretty much every race.... But he did throw away a possible win (France) and podium (Imola).... If you're going to back one driver full on from the start, you don't want that driver to throw away points like that.

But all that is nothing compared to the boatloads of points lost by strategy errors and other failures....

I really don't either.

Recently I've seen claims on Twitter and elsewhere that somehow the car has been developed towards him and that's why Ferrari is slower now. Not to mention people saying he swaying team decisions through Santander connections and all sorts of wild rumors.

It's pretty mind boggling how far people have gone this season vs last year regarding the drivers.

[Xyz22]

I don't get the Sainz bashing honestly. There are many issues with the team currently but the drivers surely aren't a priority? Leclerc is obviously faster than Sainz, pretty much every race.... But he did throw away a possible win (France) and podium (Imola).... If you're going to back one driver full on from the start, you don't want that driver to throw away points like that.

But all that is nothing compared to the boatloads of points lost by strategy errors and other failures....

I really don't either.

Recently I've seen claims on Twitter and elsewhere that somehow the car has been developed towards him and that's why Ferrari is slower now. Not to mention people saying he swaying team decisions through Santander connections and all sorts of wild rumors.

It's pretty mind boggling how far people have gone this season vs last year regarding the drivers.

This happened for a few reasons..

First, Leclerc race has been destroyed 3 times out of 15. We are talking about 2 easy wins and a potential win. Three times Leclerc was easily ahead and finished outside the podium only because of bad strategy calls. Some people didn't think a team could be so incompetent.

Then we have Binotto and Mekies statements earlier this year when they said that they would have developed the car to help Sainz. These are real statements that you can easily find by searching on google.

Last but not least the overall performance of the car has gone downhill and Leclerc started complaining about the balance in quali and in the race, making everyone a bit angrier than before which didn't help.

[Alonsismo]

leclerc pace advantage is only due to the car fitting him better.
Leclerc prefers oversteer cars
Sainz prefers understeer cars

Ferrari NEEDS a car with a better rear train and neutral balance because the actual car, slides a lot on the rear and this is costing a lot of performance on race pace and making both drivers prone to errors spining like the early season spins of sainz and most recent leclerc spins.

[AR3-GP]

I'm not addressing the question of who won Silverstone. I'm addressing the question of who the faster driver is. Sainz winning silverstone is no indication of his pace relative to Leclerc as the OP tried to claim.

I haven't seen one person say Sainz was faster than Leclerc in recent posts.

The post I quoted said that Sainz could have won more races if Ferrari strategy and reliability didn't hinder him.

That would imply that he would have also beaten Charles Leclerc.

[deadhead]

not a good look

Absolutely clear how the new TD "destroyed" the F1 - 75.

The more data we get the more clarity on the subject I guess.. Monza will be a great indicator

[aleks_ader]

Sadly Monza is another SPA outlier....

[ringo]

Why i only talking about Leclerc? Because you also have to take the drivers into account. And a Sainz or a Perez is not in the same league as Verstappen, Leclerc, Hamilton or Russel. Or do you really want to say that Hamilton and Russell are only at the level of Sainz or Perez? Having said that - Mercedes chased and passed Perez... does this mean that the Mercedes is now on Red Bull level? Certainly not, as it is not on Ferrari level.

No we dont have to account for the drivers, as we were talking about the cars. So by default you have to take the worse driver's level as the average you can get from the car.
So far Perez despite being slower than Max, is still untouchable by the others on Sundays.
He shoots himself in the foot with poor qualifying. But he really is not challenged on Sundays. That's how you know how strong the car is. You wont hear Lewis or George planning to race Perez or beat him. But they can speak about sainz and leclerc in the same sentence.
I am not saying the w13 is equal to the f175. But on average its good enough on Sunday's to beat an F175 considering the randomness of weather and strategy and chance. We cant even predict if a ferrari starting on the first 2 rows will not get beat by a mercedes next week. But we can safely say that a redbull will not be challenged by a w13 if it is even behind by a few rows.

Sorry, but that makes no sense. The worse driver is not able to use the cars full potential. Sorry, but thats a fact and the reason why he is the worse driver. Its the better driver who makes full use of the cars potential and of course you have to take the driver who uses the cars real potential if you compare the performance levels of the cars.

Similar excuses you used for Perez i could now use for Sainz. And its a fact that Lewis and George planned and beat Sainz in France. So its not like there is a huge difference between beating a Ferrari and a Red Bull and that its not possible for Mercedes to beat Red Bull. As with Ferrari they obviously did it already. But as with Ferrari Mercedes needs them to make mistakes. As you say by yourself - the W13 is only able to challenge the F-75 considering the randomness of weather, strategy and chance. I absolutely agree with you on that. And the same applies for Red Bull obviously. The difference is that Red Bull makes less, if not zero, mistakes. But in terms of pure performance, and thats what this discussion was about in the first place, its usually as hard for Mercedes to beat Ferrari as it is to beat Red Bull. Ferrari and Red Bull usually are very close in terms of performance(untill Spa for sure, Zandvort will show if this has changed, but i hardly doubt it). And thats a fact. There is enough data to prove this. Formula1.com done an analysis that has shown that the F1-75 is the fastest car, with Red Bull being a close second.

Hello Andi... So what's the excuse now?
Let me hear your theory on why only 7 days later Ferrari are struggling to even finish ahead of mercedes?

[Shal_Leg16]

There is no race that Sainz was faster than Leclerc. Leclerc should have won Silverstone.

But he didn't. It is what it is. What was said was not factually incorrect.

I'm not addressing the question of who won Silverstone. I'm addressing the question of who the faster driver is. Sainz winning silverstone is no indication of his pace relative to Leclerc as the OP tried to claim.

OP said:

You´ve just illustrated what I said about Lecrerc fans who can´t rely on Lecrerc. Yes, Sainz won Silverstone. And he could have won some more race if not for Ferrari lack of reliability or strategic mistakes

And my response is that Sainz could not win a single race without Leclerc having trouble given the pace differences.

Before we get to talking about Ferrari pit wall, reliability, and pit stops, Sainz is not even in a position to beat Leclerc in a straight fight....let alone win races in spite of Ferrari ruining everything.

Exactly.

he even said two more things in his rebuttal to my comment ,
1) Sainz could have won more races if not for Ferrari ..
2) May be we are afraid that sainz may end up ahead second year in a row ?

frist of all sainz was never in contention for race win except for Silverstone after SC incident, that too thanks to same ferrari strategy that he is cursing ( irony )

Secondly the bullishness to say leclerc fans might be afraid of... when we all know how Sainz endup 5 pts ahead last season.

this just prooved my original point that its this behavior from sainz supporters that's getting him may be the undeserved heat .

and then again sainz fans are free to have any opinion they want ..big him up as much as you want but then they should not complain about others disagreement thats the point.

[Andi76]

No we dont have to account for the drivers, as we were talking about the cars. So by default you have to take the worse driver's level as the average you can get from the car.
So far Perez despite being slower than Max, is still untouchable by the others on Sundays.
He shoots himself in the foot with poor qualifying. But he really is not challenged on Sundays. That's how you know how strong the car is. You wont hear Lewis or George planning to race Perez or beat him. But they can speak about sainz and leclerc in the same sentence.
I am not saying the w13 is equal to the f175. But on average its good enough on Sunday's to beat an F175 considering the randomness of weather and strategy and chance. We cant even predict if a ferrari starting on the first 2 rows will not get beat by a mercedes next week. But we can safely say that a redbull will not be challenged by a w13 if it is even behind by a few rows.

Sorry, but that makes no sense. The worse driver is not able to use the cars full potential. Sorry, but thats a fact and the reason why he is the worse driver. Its the better driver who makes full use of the cars potential and of course you have to take the driver who uses the cars real potential if you compare the performance levels of the cars.

Similar excuses you used for Perez i could now use for Sainz. And its a fact that Lewis and George planned and beat Sainz in France. So its not like there is a huge difference between beating a Ferrari and a Red Bull and that its not possible for Mercedes to beat Red Bull. As with Ferrari they obviously did it already. But as with Ferrari Mercedes needs them to make mistakes. As you say by yourself - the W13 is only able to challenge the F-75 considering the randomness of weather, strategy and chance. I absolutely agree with you on that. And the same applies for Red Bull obviously. The difference is that Red Bull makes less, if not zero, mistakes. But in terms of pure performance, and thats what this discussion was about in the first place, its usually as hard for Mercedes to beat Ferrari as it is to beat Red Bull. Ferrari and Red Bull usually are very close in terms of performance(untill Spa for sure, Zandvort will show if this has changed, but i hardly doubt it). And thats a fact. There is enough data to prove this. Formula1.com done an analysis that has shown that the F1-75 is the fastest car, with Red Bull being a close second.

Hello Andi... So what's the excuse now?
Let me hear your theory on why only 7 days later Ferrari are struggling to even finish ahead of mercedes?

Why an excuse? As i said - Zandvort will show if the facts have changed. And untill Spa - those were the facts. But even as i doubted it, they obviousls have changed. Without a doubt Ferrari has lost race-pace. My theory about the reason(s) was posted in this thread a few hours before.

[RTruth41]

But he didn't. It is what it is. What was said was not factually incorrect.

I'm not addressing the question of who won Silverstone. I'm addressing the question of who the faster driver is. Sainz winning silverstone is no indication of his pace relative to Leclerc as the OP tried to claim.

OP said:

You´ve just illustrated what I said about Lecrerc fans who can´t rely on Lecrerc. Yes, Sainz won Silverstone. And he could have won some more race if not for Ferrari lack of reliability or strategic mistakes

And my response is that Sainz could not win a single race without Leclerc having trouble given the pace differences.

Before we get to talking about Ferrari pit wall, reliability, and pit stops, Sainz is not even in a position to beat Leclerc in a straight fight....let alone win races in spite of Ferrari ruining everything.

Exactly.

he even said two more things in his rebuttal to my comment ,
1) Sainz could have won more races if not for Ferrari ..
2) May be we are afraid that sainz may end up ahead second year in a row ?

frist of all sainz was never in contention for race win except for Silverstone after SC incident, that too thanks to same ferrari strategy that he is cursing ( irony )

Secondly the bullishness to say leclerc fans might be afraid of... when we all know how Sainz endup 5 pts ahead last season.

this just prooved my original point that its this behavior from sainz supporters that's getting him may be the undeserved heat .

and then again sainz fans are free to have any opinion they want ..big him up as much as you want but then they should not complain about others disagreement thats the point.

Thay are not openly saying or comparing Charles and Sainz as of now ..but one good result by Sainz and they pop up with sainz is better / faster argument. Right now what ever i have read they are just denying it.

Secondly i also agree that they have their right to support whoever they like but there should be some honesty backing it .

to say things like leclerc fans cant rely on him , and may be they are afraid etc etc and then also complain Sainz is being targeted is just plain stupidity.

[RTruth41]

I'm not addressing the question of who won Silverstone. I'm addressing the question of who the faster driver is. Sainz winning silverstone is no indication of his pace relative to Leclerc as the OP tried to claim.

I haven't seen one person say Sainz was faster than Leclerc in recent posts.

Be honest , hasnt there been any post on same narratives here that Sainz is better /faster ?

[Andres125sx]

But he didn't. It is what it is. What was said was not factually incorrect.

I'm not addressing the question of who won Silverstone. I'm addressing the question of who the faster driver is. Sainz winning silverstone is no indication of his pace relative to Leclerc as the OP tried to claim.

OP said:

You´ve just illustrated what I said about Lecrerc fans who can´t rely on Lecrerc. Yes, Sainz won Silverstone. And he could have won some more race if not for Ferrari lack of reliability or strategic mistakes

And my response is that Sainz could not win a single race without Leclerc having trouble given the pace differences.

Before we get to talking about Ferrari pit wall, reliability, and pit stops, Sainz is not even in a position to beat Leclerc in a straight fight....let alone win races in spite of Ferrari ruining everything.

Exactly.

he even said two more things in his rebuttal to my comment ,
1) Sainz could have won more races if not for Ferrari ..
2) May be we are afraid that sainz may end up ahead second year in a row ?

frist of all sainz was never in contention for race win except for Silverstone after SC incident, that too thanks to same ferrari strategy that he is cursing ( irony )

Secondly the bullishness to say leclerc fans might be afraid of... when we all know how Sainz endup 5 pts ahead last season.

this just prooved my original point that its this behavior from sainz supporters that's getting him may be the undeserved heat .

and then again sainz fans are free to have any opinion they want ..big him up as much as you want but then they should not complain about others disagreement thats the point.

Irony? Not, it´s racing, cope with it. GPs are not always as expected, there are driver mistakes, there are strategic mistakes, there are car failures, and there are lucky/unlucky SC or VSC... and all these cause unpredictable results. This is the fun about racing, otherwise it would be too predictable and boring

But for some reason you Lecrerc fans take this as an offence to Charles, when this is normal racing. Every season there are drivers who win GPs even when they were not the fastest driver/car/package. None take as an offence to Max when someone say Perez won Monaco... what´s the reason you Lecrerc fans take it as an offence when someone say Sainz won Silverstone?

Not only that, there are even seasons when the driver becoming WDC is not the fastest. You think Rosberg was faster than Lewis when he became WDC? No way, but he´s WDC anycase. That´s the reason Ferrari didn´t consider Sainz a #2, maybe he´s not faster than Lecrerc, but he´s fast and consistent enough to have a real chance to become WDC if things go south for Charles.

For Lecrerc fans it´s obvious Ferrari should have considered Sainz a #2, but for F1 teams there are more important things into play, as WCC is even more important than WDC, so they never limit any of their drivers to favour any other, or they´d be limiting their own potential to become WCC, at least while both of them have a real chance... or neither of them have a real chance, like currently

[Andi76]

leclerc pace advantage is only due to the car fitting him better.
Leclerc prefers oversteer cars
Sainz prefers understeer cars

Ferrari NEEDS a car with a better rear train and neutral balance because the actual car, slides a lot on the rear and this is costing a lot of performance on race pace and making both drivers prone to errors spining like the early season spins of sainz and most recent leclerc spins.

I am neither a Leclerc fan, nor a Sainz fan, but i do not think its true that its only due to the car fitting Leclerc better. Leclerc has 5 victories, 15 Poles and 7 Fastest laps in 91 GPs against Sainz 1 victory, 2 poles and 3 fastest laps in 151 races. Sainz won Formula Renault but was only P10 in GP3, a series that Leclerc has won next to F2. Leclerc was always among the Top 4 in any junior series he competed while Sainz wasn't. He even ended up in P 9, P 10, P19. So in general Leclerc is far more sucessfull. Coincident? Bad luck all the time? Possible, but i hardly doubt that Sainz always had worse cars(especially in the junior formulas which all have the same chassis and engine etc.)or bad luck. The same trend continues in F1. You can turn it however you want, but all this is at least an indicator of Leclerc being the faster driver. And at the end of the day, being sucessfull is what determines who is the "faster" or "better" driver. And in that regard there is no doubt that Leclerc is clearly ahead of Sainz.

For the car - the F1-75 was a very well balanced car. Now it isn't(drivers are constantly complaining about its balance recently). It may be the last aero upgrade with less outwash of the outer tunnel entrances that changed the loads, it may be the new TD and its implications that changed the loads or a combination of things. But the car is definetely not as well balanced as it used to be because of the implications i already mentioned in one of my previous posts.