Ferrari F2012

[Crucial_Xtreme]

AutoSprint's @sabbatini said on RAI tonight that Ferrari is "inspired" by the C-31 for the sidepods & exhausts system. In other words he's saying that Ferrari will copy the Sauber exhaust solution & sidepods. Not an exact copy but very similar.

[Chuckjr]

It would be incredibly disappointing if they did that since getting the Acer ducts right may offer an advantage even over Macca. Why bother copying a car that's upper mid field when you could possibly have an innovation nobody could copy till next year and that potentially could offer some serious reduction in lap time while embracing the original philosophy of design of the car that they have been working on since July, 2011. They have no track time with the Sauber exhaust so all the acer information would go in the bin and they just start over again. fail

[Lycoming]

I'm not so sure about that. You could say the same about the exhausts Mclaren tried in testing last year, which ultimately did not work out. I think, however, that at this point its quite clear which solution is better at sealing the floor. When you need to catch up ASAP, copying a solution that seems to work pretty well for the others is a reasonable route.

[Gridlock]

Adopt, adapt and overcome - but still, f2012 certainly hasn't covered Ferrari's new tech team in glory. Alonso yes, but not the team. Hope they get it to a place where they're happy to build next years car off it, not sure they really want to be starting from scratch again.

[Crucial_Xtreme]

Adopt, adapt and overcome - but still, f2012 certainly hasn't covered Ferrari's new tech team in glory. Alonso yes, but not the team. Hope they get it to a place where they're happy to build next years car off it, not sure they really want to be starting from scratch again.

I couldn't agree more, with all of your points. There's not supposed to be too much change from 2012 to 2013, but Whiting has said they will have to revise the exhaust situation for 2013. So this year might end up being a one off. Either way, they need to gain ground, and do it fast.

@Chuck I can see what you mean about Ferrari copying another team. The whole point of the F2012 was to be "radical" this year and not copy others. But things change when you're as behind as Ferrari are. Also, I would say that while Sauber is a upper mid-field team, RB is not and they copied the Sauber solution as well. Let's keep in mind this isn't a definite. This guy could be way off the mark. But word is that Ferrari have 2 solutions in the works; a modified versioni of the original exhaust, and a McLaren or Sauber solution. Guess we'll see in Mugello.

[hardingfv32]

I' I think, however, that at this point its quite clear which solution is better at sealing the floor.

Nothing is clear! Some people just spent 5-6 pages saying it was the front suspension. Now it is the Acer duct. Ferrari was bad last year and they are just as bad this year. What are the chances the exhaust positioning, front suspension, or even the nose treatment have nothing to do with it?

You guys are just picking the things that are easy to see, that has no bearing on how where there issues are.

Brian

[Lycoming]

Ferrari has trouble with low speed traction. This suggests the problem is related to the diffuser/floor. We know they drastically dropped their rake in testing. Suggests they have difficulty sealing the floor. They are not just as bad this year as they are last year; they're much, much worse. 1 person spent 5-6 pages bringing up the front suspension while everybody reiterated why pullrod has nothing to do with their problems. I consider exhaust positioning to be part of the uct, the 2 kind of work together. The nose allows greater mass flow to the floor than Mclaren's nose, yet they have no issues with low speed traction. The other fundamental difference between the cars is the exhaust.

Ok, not the most watertight argument, but I did follow a path to get there.

[Chuckjr]

@Chuck I can see what you mean about Ferrari copying another team. The whole point of the F2012 was to be "radical" this year and not copy others. But things change when you're as behind as Ferrari are. Also, I would say that while Sauber is a upper mid-field team, RB is not and they copied the Sauber solution as well. Let's keep in mind this isn't a definite. This guy could be way off the mark. But word is that Ferrari have 2 solutions in the works; a modified versioni of the original exhaust, and a McLaren or Sauber solution. Guess we'll see in Mugello.

That just really leaves my cheese in the wind if they just end up tossing the white flag and copying. Good god, have some pride.

If you gonna resort to copy, why bother with the mid high Sauber when you can copy a clear leader in Macca? High nose not compatible? No problem! We are Ferrari. Just put the same low nose like Macca. Really. Build the whole thing identical. If your going to copy, why not copy the clear leader and nail it day one? If its a one off, even more reason as you may get lucky and not have to do a nose redu come next seasons nose regs and can build on a winner. If its crap, doesn't matter, you had very little from the F2012 -- it's nose is jacked anyway and would require a drastic redu come new regs which will mess up the whole front--right about the time they are hopefully coming to grips with it.

[Maelstrom]

@Chuck I can see what you mean about Ferrari copying another team. The whole point of the F2012 was to be "radical" this year and not copy others. But things change when you're as behind as Ferrari are. Also, I would say that while Sauber is a upper mid-field team, RB is not and they copied the Sauber solution as well. Let's keep in mind this isn't a definite. This guy could be way off the mark. But word is that Ferrari have 2 solutions in the works; a modified versioni of the original exhaust, and a McLaren or Sauber solution. Guess we'll see in Mugello.

That just really leaves my cheese in the wind if they just end up tossing the white flag and copying. Good god, have some pride.

If you gonna resort to copy, why bother with the mid high Sauber when you can copy a clear leader in Macca? High nose not compatible? No problem! We are Ferrari. Just put the same low nose like Macca. Really. Build the whole thing identical. If your going to copy, why not copy the clear leader and nail it day one? If its a one off, even more reason as you may get lucky and not have to do a nose redu come next seasons nose regs and can build on a winner. If its crap, doesn't matter, you had very little from the F2012 -- it's nose is jacked anyway and would require a drastic redu come new regs which will mess up the whole front--right about the time they are hopefully coming to grips with it.

I doubt its as simple as copying the whole car. They might be able to copy the aero but they have different engines for one. And copying Mclarens nose might not work with their car. They have a different suspension.

Though I can agree that maybe they just need to be patient and work to make this car better and better. They messed up but there are no shortcuts to a good car now. Copying somebody else is not the solution.

[motobaleno]

It would be incredibly disappointing if they did that since getting the Acer ducts right may offer an advantage even over Macca. Why bother copying a car that's upper mid field when you could possibly have an innovation nobody could copy till next year and that potentially could offer some serious reduction in lap time while embracing the original philosophy of design of the car that they have been working on since July, 2011. They have no track time with the Sauber exhaust so all the acer information would go in the bin and they just start over again. fail

wait. it seems clear to me that ferrari said that they would continue to develop their original exhaust and sidepods layout but, until this original layout will not grant the promised performance they will revert to a temporary more traditional solution...
it sounds pretty different...

[Maelstrom]

It would be incredibly disappointing if they did that since getting the Acer ducts right may offer an advantage even over Macca. Why bother copying a car that's upper mid field when you could possibly have an innovation nobody could copy till next year and that potentially could offer some serious reduction in lap time while embracing the original philosophy of design of the car that they have been working on since July, 2011. They have no track time with the Sauber exhaust so all the acer information would go in the bin and they just start over again. fail

wait. it seems clear to me that ferrari said that they would continue to develop their original exhaust and sidepods layout but, until this original layout will not grant the promised performance they will revert to a temporary more traditional solution...
it sounds pretty different...

This sounds more reasonable. Though how practical it is I cannot say.

[Gilles 27]

So than make some points clear
- The F2012 has 2 Problems to resolve

-Topspeed, because the hole aerodynamic doesn't work like the CFD-departmend has calculated, simulated and suggested, so they need more wing.

-Less traction in slow corner, looks that the car doesn't produce enough mechanical grip.

The team has began last July to focus the ressources in this project to evaluate and simulate all this stuff, and this is the result?
Again a Flop, again to change the whole car true the saison!!!
Even Sauber And Lotus has make the better job with less Ressources in a shorter time!
To make a revolutionary car doesnt mean sometimes to change the whole car, but to keep the best and reinvent the rest!
Ferrari has change alot, too much maybe. But the weak point stay still there aerodynamic Department.

[elFranZ]

So than make some points clear
- The F2012 has 2 Problems to resolve

-Topspeed, because the hole aerodynamic doesn't work like the CFD-departmend has calculated, simulated and suggested, so they need more wing.

-Less traction in slow corner, looks that the car doesn't produce enough mechanical grip.

The team has began last July to focus the ressources in this project to evaluate and simulate all this stuff, and this is the result?
Again a Flop, again to change the whole car true the saison!!!
Even Sauber And Lotus has make the better job with less Ressources in a shorter time!
To make a revolutionary car doesnt mean sometimes to change the whole car, but to keep the best and reinvent the rest!
Ferrari has change alot, too much maybe. But the weak point stay still there aerodynamic Department.

I understand your anger, but is it really the case? The "flop" allowed a certain pilot to stay on top on Malaysia. The only quicker was Perez on dry track.
Stay calm, Scuderia knows what to do. Much more than me and you for sure.

[banibhusan]

I understand your anger, but is it really the case? The "flop" allowed a certain pilot to stay on top on Malaysia. The only quicker was Perez on dry track.
Stay calm, Scuderia knows what to do. Much more than me and you for sure.

Btw, it wasn't the "flop" that allowed that certain pilot to stay on top in Malaysia, it was the other way around. It was "That extraordinary certain pilot" who put the flop on top in Malaysia.

Though the car is not clearly a flop. It still has a lot of potential and I hope they can extract all of it.

[bhall]

-Topspeed, because the hole aerodynamic doesn't work like the CFD-departmend has calculated, simulated and suggested, so they need more wing.

-Less traction in slow corner, looks that the car doesn't produce enough mechanical grip.

[...]
To make a revolutionary car doesnt mean sometimes to change the whole car, but to keep the best and reinvent the rest!
Ferrari has change alot, too much maybe. But the weak point stay still there aerodynamic Department.

Ferrari has trouble with low speed traction. This suggests the problem is related to the diffuser/floor. We know they drastically dropped their rake in testing. Suggests they have difficulty sealing the floor.
[...]

Ok, not the most watertight argument, but I did follow a path to get there.

A car that inherently lacks mechanical grip will not win a wet race no matter how many fortuitous events occur along the way.

The F2012's problems with low-speed traction and top-speed performance are not problems as much as they're symptoms of the problem. The diffuser has been lowered so that it will work, because the exhaust didn't do it as intended. The resulting need for a stiffer rear suspension setting is killing traction - and tires - which then kills the car's top speed.

I don't think the F2012's design is its "revolutionary" aspect. That, I believe, is the methodology behind its development. Instead of devoting any resources to a contingency plan, Ferrari made a design decision and then ran with it, full-speed ahead. That's brilliant if it works, and it's the F2012 if it doesn't.