Engine Unfreeze

[dans79]

It's obviously to cover for the development costs of completely new engine technology, where MHPE is said to have spent 400 MEUR.

Merc have spent $400M on it? So the proofs there isn't it. It's $400M which would not have been spend otherwise. .

MHPE, Ferrari and Renault are simply offloading the PU-development costs on their customers, that's how business works.

I'ts certainly not the cost of the engine itself, but the different ERS-systems.

I fail to see how where the cost from matters, development cost is development cost. it doesn't matter if it from trying to develop better batteries, better aero, better software, or better connecting rods. Diminishing returns development is always expensive regardless of the field of research.

[GitanesBlondes]

F1's biggest problem was these new ultra-xpensive engines, an epic mistake, bring back the V8s, or better still the 3.0 V10s

BS

The manufacturers are spending the same; only now they are charging a huge sum to their customers who are more than 1

They would be charging the same as they were for V8's if the costs to develop the V6T units were the same.

Given that a Ferrari and a Renault customer both folded, it's obvious why Ferrari and Renault both want to go back to the V8's. They've already figured out losing a customer or two (Renault's case for next season with the Lotus change) is causing the finance guys to scream to high heaven about the stupidity of this engine venture.

That La Ferrari XX was probably a way for Ferrari to try and unload even more of the costs of these V6T units on customers with more money than brains.

Everyone knows F1's financial situation, while not exactly the best in recent years, took a nosedive off a cliff this year - the engine change.

[dans79]

Everyone knows F1's financial situation, while not exactly the best in recent years, took a nosedive off a cliff this year - the engine change.

And i will say it again, anyone that didn't see this coming wasn't looking very hard. Anytime you create a development race, costs will skyrocket, and that's exactly what the new engine formula is.

[astracrazy]

Given that a Ferrari and a Renault customer both folded, it's obvious why Ferrari and Renault both want to go back to the V8's. They've already figured out losing a customer or two (Renault's case for next season with the Lotus change) is causing the finance guys to scream to high heaven about the stupidity of this engine venture.

nail on the head

the fact they also have a poor product is salt in the wounds and now they want to cut there loses. The costs/losses aren't even coming with any success

[xpensive]

MrE today;

"We need to change the regulations," the F1 chief executive told Sky television a week ago. "We're going to try to get rid of these (V6) engines.

"They don't do anything for anybody. They're not formula one," he insisted.

The 84-year-old Briton most certainly has some allies. Some of them are fans who miss the normally-aspirated V8 scream.

And Ecclestone also has many race promoters on side.

Imagine if Ferrari loses Sauber as well, what a mess?

[bill shoe]

Ferrari and Renault are big babies. They got the V-6 turbo engines announced years in advance, unlike formula changes in the 80's and 90's when you had a year or so to change and that was it. Then they got an additional year when V-6 turbo implementation was delayed. Now they find out they suck despite all the time to prepare. Mercedes, incredibly, has offered to undo some of the freeze despite no legal obligation to do so. However, the babies say it's not enough of a gift so they are threatening nuclear options for 2016 (bring back V-8's, no development limits on V-6's, etc.). Ferrari and Renault have chosen to play in a very big sandbox with very big kids. If they can't handle it then they simply need to play in a different sandbox.

[astracrazy]

MrE today;

"We need to change the regulations," the F1 chief executive told Sky television a week ago. "We're going to try to get rid of these (V6) engines.

"They don't do anything for anybody. They're not formula one," he insisted.

The 84-year-old Briton most certainly has some allies. Some of them are fans who miss the normally-aspirated V8 scream.

And Ecclestone also has many race promoters on side.

someone is going to get very upset. Those with the Merc engine won't want to lose the advantage so surely won't vote for change. Whilst Force India are going on about costs, the merc engine they pay for has pushed them up the grid and may well put them ahead of Mclaren next year if the honda is sh*t.

mclaren won't want change because they will lose honda

F1 is stuck in a power struggle

[FW17]

They need another 4 engine manufactures in F1 to be sustainable with a new formula; which means regulations need to be more open and restrictions need to be removed.

If teams want to run without a turbo they should be allowed to do so

if they want to run without ERS and only turbo they should be allowed to do so

[dans79]

They need another 4 engine manufactures in F1 to be sustainable with a new formula; which means regulations need to be more open and restrictions need to be removed.

If teams want to run without a turbo they should be allowed to do so

if they want to run without ERS and only turbo they should be allowed to do so

And I said earlier the fans will never go for this, because it will lead to huge performance disparities.

[astracrazy]

They need another 4 engine manufactures in F1 to be sustainable with a new formula; which means regulations need to be more open and restrictions need to be removed.

If teams want to run without a turbo they should be allowed to do so

if they want to run without ERS and only turbo they should be allowed to do so

and how will that save any money when teams are already screaming surrender. crazy sums of money would be spent on developing parts

[Ciro Pabón]

Well, F1 has hit the capitalist wall.

In capitalism, once you deregulate a sector invariably tends to have only three players while the other smaller potatoes are adorn figures:

* ABC-NBC-CBS
* Android-iOS-Blackberry
* ATT-Verizon-CenturyLink
* BP-Chevron-ExxonMobil
* Volkswagen-Daimler-BMW
* GM-Ford-Chrysler
* Toyota-Nissan-Honda
* IBM-Apple-Compaq
* Shem, Ham and Japhet

and now

Renault-Ferrari-Mercedes

[Facts Only]

This whole argument makes me despair for F1 and grow weary of the industry I love.

From the inside I definitely believe that the whole problem is that everybody is in charge and yet nobody is in charge. The whole sport just drifts from self interest based argument to in-fighting to ruderless rules changes on a weekly basis. You cant have the FIA, the teams, the managemant and the race promoters all in charge at the same time baecause they all want something different.

All of the doomsdayers bring the sport down as well, its a self fulfilling prophecy. Its like a child in a tantrum smashing up there own toys because they arent allowed to play.

Seemingly unlike everybody else in the world I dont know what the answer is, but it would be nice if somebody worked it out and we could have some racing.

The FIA sanction the "Formula" so maybe they should take responsibilty and take back control of the rulebook, then FOM can get on with running the business, the teams can concentrate on competing against each other and the fans can watch some racing without the corruption of all this background (now foreground?) politics?

I'm sure if that happened teams would come and go, viewing figures would go up and down and revenues would increase and decrease.... just like it always has done... Not everybody can have it they way they want it and win all the time.

[Jonnycraig]

Mercedes, incredibly, has offered to undo some of the freeze despite no legal obligation to do so.

However they have refused to agree to the proposed amendment making it compulsory to provide customers with the latest upgrades...

someone is going to get very upset. Those with the Merc engine won't want to lose the advantage so surely won't vote for change. Whilst Force India are going on about costs, the merc engine they pay for has pushed them up the grid and may well put them ahead of Mclaren next year if the honda is sh*t.

mclaren won't want change because they will lose honda

F1 is stuck in a power struggle

Ecclestone alone has more voting rights in the WSG than Merc, Lotus, Williams & McLaren put together. That's without Ferrari, RB & Todt....

Whilst I can't believe that they will go back to the V8s, Ecclestone is obliged to provide a show to the viewers, and with all due respect to Merc fans, Prost v Senna this year isn't.

It's harsh on Mercedes, but Ecclestone & in its very troubled period, F1 itself, needs Merc, Ferrari, RB & McLaren level pegging or something close to it.

[MOWOG]

The FIA sanction the "Formula" so maybe they should take responsibility

Not gonna happen. Not while that pussified wuss Jean Todt is sitting in the executive office on the Champs Elysee.

But I agree with your point. I am sick to death of all this in-fighting, back stabbing and Machiavellian intrigue.

I think we should start a "Boycott F1" group on Facebook. Bernie won't notice cuz he doesn't know what Facebook is, but I bet the teams would notice. They are all media savvy.

Being a Formula One fan is like watching kids fighting over their toys in a sandbox. Here we have a ding dong final race coming up in 2 weeks to decided the WDC and all anybody is talking about is changing the rules. It's all pretty disgusting.

[GitanesBlondes]

Ferrari and Renault are big babies. They got the V-6 turbo engines announced years in advance, unlike formula changes in the 80's and 90's when you had a year or so to change and that was it. Then they got an additional year when V-6 turbo implementation was delayed. Now they find out they suck despite all the time to prepare. Mercedes, incredibly, has offered to undo some of the freeze despite no legal obligation to do so. However, the babies say it's not enough of a gift so they are threatening nuclear options for 2016 (bring back V-8's, no development limits on V-6's, etc.). Ferrari and Renault have chosen to play in a very big sandbox with very big kids. If they can't handle it then they simply need to play in a different sandbox.

Actually it was the 4 cylinder turbo units originally than Mosley wanted, but no one wanted them at all.

For those who actually have looked at the larger picture, the economics of this formula never made sense, and it was clear to many knowledgeable members here well over a year ago that this engine change was ill-thought out as it was a byproduct of Max Mosley's own imagination.

If Mercedes quits because they go back to V8's, then Cosworth will pickup right where they left off.