2015 Japanese Grand Prix - Suzuka

[Andres125sx]

If you´d have experienced this yourself maybe you´d think like me. I´ve been tempted to do it often too, but some of us have different manners to some others, even while racing.

In GT racing yes, because it´s frowned upon. But in F1? This is common practice

You agree this is usually seen as too tough racing but in F1 it´s ok because many people do it?

So you must also think going too fast in the road is ok because many people do it, right?

If a guy can´t make it stick on the outside you run him out of road, it´s really that simple and i´m amazed you still haven´t figured this out.

And I´m amazed you think Rosberg could have make it stick on the outside better than he did with Lewis going to the outer kerb.... How is that posible? Ghost car like in playstation?

Basically it boils down to your own preference of overtakes rather then what is actually considered ok in the sport.
got it.

You´ve stated yourself it´s frowned upon in other categories, so I guess it´s not only my own preference, only that unlike you, I have same opinion for any racing category. And if there should be any difference, then it should be the other way around, in a open wheel category contact between cars are a lot more dangerous, so if it´s not ok in GT, it should never be in F1.

[mrluke]

To me it is very different, in Spa Rosberg tryed to pass at the outside but never managed to be parallel to Lewis so he didn´t earn the position. That´s the reason he broke his wing with Lewis rear tyre, he was too far back.

At the very start of T2 the cars are level.

By the exit Ros is pretty much a car length behind and still on the track.

From watching it several times i'm pretty sure they both overcooked it slightly into T2 which is why the both run wide.

It looks like Ros runs off track when his whole car is behind ham rather than just to avoid but the available camera angles are rubbish.



For me by the first picture (pre turn 1) Rosberg has already lost the position. There is probably only half a car length difference between Ham and Ros vs Bot and Vet.

By the 2nd shot Bot has clearly seen that trying to run around Vet is not going to work and instead slotted in behind. Also note how far across vet has come between T1 and T2, much further than Ham came across meaning ham is either going to overshoot on the exit slightly or going to be slower through T2 (probably both).

The third shot clearly shows Ham ahead by half a car plus on the apex. Rosbergs line has been compromised because he cant get anywhere near the apex so he is almost certainly going to run wide on the exit.

onboards from ham and ros would be great but not available.

Either way the take home point is that before T1 ros had already lost the position. From that point onwards he was driving into a wedge that was always going to end on the T2 exit kerb. He would have been best to slot back in behind ham.

[NathanOlder]

The first 3 photo's make it clear to me. Nico had room and over cooked it on the exit of T2. Theae photo's make it seem that Lewis left room and Nico screwed up.

[WaikeCU]

It's clearly understeering to me by the looks of it. Just look at how late he has to wait to hit the throttle off corner.

[SectorOne]

You agree this is usually seen as too tough racing but in F1 it´s ok because many people do it?

So you must also think going too fast in the road is ok because many people do it, right?

So once again we are back to your own preference of what you think is ok, not what has been ok for the last 20 years in the sport.

And I´m amazed you think Rosberg could have make it stick on the outside better than he did with Lewis going to the outer kerb.... How is that posible? Ghost car like in playstation?

Lewis would not be able to go go to the curb if Rosberg always stayed ahead.
Do you really want me to explain the basics of Formula 1 overtaking to you?

You´ve stated yourself it´s frowned upon in other categories, so I guess it´s not only my own preference, only that unlike you, I have same opinion for any racing category.

So i was right, your own preference goes above what is considered ok in Formula 1 and has been for the last 20 years.
You can´t look at one series and just demand the same for another. You also can´t ignore what is already ok in the sport.

so if it´s not ok in GT, it should never be in F1.

I rest my case.

[Just_a_fan]

If you´d have experienced this yourself maybe you´d think like me. I´ve been tempted to do it often too, but some of us have different manners to some others, even while racing.

In GT racing yes, because it´s frowned upon. But in F1? This is common practice

You agree this is usually seen as too tough racing but in F1 it´s ok because many people do it?

It's usual in European single seat open wheeled series not just in F1.

So you must also think going too fast in the road is ok because many people do it, right?

That'd be a fallacious argument. Or perhaps a case of reductio ad absurdum...

[pimpwerx]

https://www.formula1.com/content/fom-we ... japan.html

Even the official site labels the move as "...uncompromising, but ultimately fair...." The stewards took no action and didn't even investigate. Rosberg himself didn't label it as unfair. Lewis is clearly under steering through T2.

Close the book on this one, and let's refrain from using emotion as a basis for an argument in the future. This should never have been a talking point. PEACE.

[Andres125sx]

People is continuously complaining about absurd stewards decisions, but suddenly in this case stewards opinion is gospel truth... Funny at least.


So you people think any driver leaving some space to the car at the outer part of the track is stupid because he could push him out of track and there will be no problem, nobody will complain, there will never be any punishment, and even the driver pushed out will be happy.

I must have lived in a parallel dimension then, because I´ve seen a lot of battles with fair drivers leaving some space to the car at the outer part of the track so they kept parallel for several corners. Those were the most exciting battles I´ve seen btw, but with your theory those would have never existed.


And no SectorOne, it´s not a matter of my preference, this is racing not maths, almost everything is subjective and interpretable. Here main problem is how to consider if the driver at the outer part has earned the position or not. IMO here Rosberg could have kept the line (as he was doing since the start) but Lewis went into T2 too fast, and understeered pushing Nico out, who was quick enough to see Hamilton understeering and moving out of his way. Mentality is important here too, and at that respect Lewis won the battle a long time ago so in these situations Nico will always be first releasing the throttle. Both of them know this and Lewis take advantage of it.

If you think otherwise ok, that´s your interpretation but please stop that patronising attitude talking about explaining to me the basics of F1

[pimpwerx]

People is continuously complaining about absurd stewards decisions, but suddenly in this case stewards opinion is gospel truth... Funny at least.


So you people think any driver leaving some space to the car at the outer part of the track is stupid because he could push him out of track and there will be no problem, nobody will complain, there will never be any punishment, and even the driver pushed out will be happy.

I must have lived in a parallel dimension then, because I´ve seen a lot of battles with fair drivers leaving some space to the car at the outer part of the track so they kept parallel for several corners. Those were the most exciting battles I´ve seen btw, but with your theory those would have never existed.


And no SectorOne, it´s not a matter of my preference, this is racing not maths, almost everything is subjective and interpretable. Here main problem is how to consider if the driver at the outer part has earned the position or not. IMO here Rosberg could have kept the line (as he was doing since the start) but Lewis went into T2 too fast, and understeered pushing Nico out, who was quick enough to see Hamilton understeering and moving out of his way. Mentality is important here too, and at that respect Lewis won the battle a long time ago so in these situations Nico will always be first releasing the throttle. Both of them know this and Lewis take advantage of it.

If you think otherwise ok, that´s your interpretation but please stop that patronising attitude talking about explaining to me the basics of F1

Lewis has raced side-by-side with drivers before. I remember he went even with Jenson one race. But he didn't have the momentum to take the decisive advantage on corner exit in that situation. Jenson was much more on equal footing through the apex, do he had to get space. Lewis has his rears up to Nico's fronts by the time they reached the exit. The position was his. Shutting the door there is standard practice.

The funny thing is Nick could've done the same to Lewis entering T1, had he not outbraked himself going in. He carried too much speed and couldn't scrub enough through the chute to squeeze Lewis on the apex of T2. Had he squeezed Lewis through T2, he would've come out of T2 alongside Lewis, with excellent position for T3.

He lost the position from T1 due to carrying too much speed. Lewis braked properly, allowing him to take the desired line and win the position. Why do you think the only outrage expressed is on forums? Doesn't that suggest to you that it's a result of bias? I'm not going to discuss it further, but I'm not sure you're really being objective here. PEACE.

[SectorOne]

People is continuously complaining about absurd stewards decisions, but suddenly in this case stewards opinion is gospel truth... Funny at least.


So you people think any driver leaving some space to the car at the outer part of the track is stupid because he could push him out of track and there will be no problem, nobody will complain, there will never be any punishment, and even the driver pushed out will be happy.

I must have lived in a parallel dimension then, because I´ve seen a lot of battles with fair drivers leaving some space to the car at the outer part of the track so they kept parallel for several corners. Those were the most exciting battles I´ve seen btw, but with your theory those would have never existed.


And no SectorOne, it´s not a matter of my preference, this is racing not maths, almost everything is subjective and interpretable. Here main problem is how to consider if the driver at the outer part has earned the position or not. IMO here Rosberg could have kept the line (as he was doing since the start) but Lewis went into T2 too fast, and understeered pushing Nico out, who was quick enough to see Hamilton understeering and moving out of his way. Mentality is important here too, and at that respect Lewis won the battle a long time ago so in these situations Nico will always be first releasing the throttle. Both of them know this and Lewis take advantage of it.

If you think otherwise ok, that´s your interpretation but please stop that patronising attitude talking about explaining to me the basics of F1

It is a matter of your preferences, not about how F1 overtakes work.
The move was ok in F1, but would not be ok in say V8 Supercars.

And you somehow dont understand this. Its one thing to complain about how overtakes are done but the move itself with current philosophy in overtakes was A OK.

[Andres125sx]

Why do you think the only outrage expressed is on forums?

In this case, because he´s Rosberg and his team mate. In many other cases we´ve seen the driver in Rosberg position complaining about the move

Doesn't that suggest to you that it's a result of bias?

Yes, defending the move as if it would be normal racing to me is biased because it was Lewis

This moves have never been fair to me, even when they´re legal for stewards in some cases (Vettel vs Alonso in Monza was not considered legal and Vettel was punished), and I´ve criticized it even when it was Alonso, who is my favourite. I don´t criticize it because it was Lewis, actually he´s my second favourite, but I usually try to be consistent with my toughts


Anycase I must admit it was on the limit. The consideration of legal or not depends on the relative position between both cars, and it´s easy to say "if car at the outside is not parallel it´s legal", but then apllying in real world is a lot more complicated, because distance between both cars is constantly changing, their speed never is exactly the same, so interpretation is completely subjective. What relative position do you consider? At what point of the corner exactly?

[Moose]

So you must also think going too fast in the road is ok because many people do it, right?

That'd be a fallacious argument.

Yup

Or perhaps a case of reductio ad absurdum...

That's not a good argument. reductio ad absurdum is a mathematically rigorous method of logical proof. What he's guilty of here is creating a straw man.

[mrluke]

Pause the video above at 0:16 and see where Rosbergs car is.

There is more than a car width of track available and Rosberg is not in it. Simples.

[henra]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XO3NZ2QPDOI

It's clearly understeering to me by the looks of it. Just look at how late he has to wait to hit the throttle off corner.

Thanks!
Basically Rosberg lost it Prior to the first corner when he was out- accelerated on the straight. They came off the line synchronously also with initially the same amount of acceleration then once past the limitation of traction suddenly it seems Rosberg's car simply accelerated much slower. When entering into the first corner things were basically lost for Nico. Everything after was a logical consequence and any of the top Drivers (Seb/Fernando) would have done exactly what Lewis did. That is what separates WDCs from the 'also ran's.
Why his car accelelrated so much worse when they were pretty much equally fast off the line is a wholly different question. Not the same amount of ERS for Nico?

[AnthonyG]

Nico's engine was down on power during the start, Wolf comfirmed it.