The 2016 F1 WDC Title Dumpster Topic

[Vasconia]

You guys cannot be serious with the "he should have overtaken him" claim. We all know how good the Merc is in clean air, but we equally know that it looses (some/a lot) of its speed once it is in dirty air. That's why Ham had trouble to overtake VES in a TR in Australia or Massa in China, for example, even though he was clearly faster. How do you seriously expect Ros to pass Ham "just like this" while Ham is in the same, fast car? Not even to mention the risk involved....

Apart from this I have to totally agree with Stradivarius. Just to add, Ham did not loose the WDC solely bc of his mechanical failures but also at the starts. Had he started better in Japan or Bahrain (just to name two bad starts) he would have won that WDC. I believe it took him a bit too long to realize that Ros was a serious threat to his WDC ambitions.

I have said this more than once, those bad starts have costed more points to Lewis than the amazingly repited engine failure in Malaysia. Both drivers had problems with starts but Nico found the solution before.

[Just_a_fan]

I have said this more than once, those bad starts have costed more points to Lewis than the amazingly repited engine failure in Malaysia. Both drivers had problems with starts but Nico found the solution before.

Not just Malaysia. The start of the season engine issues contributed too.

[Vasconia]

Wow, entering this thread is like entering an entirely different world

With Nico winning this title it makes the Merc the absolute most dominant car of the last decades where both drivers were able to get the championship with no other competitor anywhere close to having a chance.

MSC, VET both had close fights with the team mates not even second in the WDC. This is now even more than before the absolute proof in numbers.

Well driven by HAM trying all he could to keep the dream alive to the last moments. Well driven by Nico, withstanding the pressure, attacking VES who is not known to be the most forgiving driver. I sincerely believe the last races he just drove to the target of becoming 2nd. Why risk collisions or abuse the car if all you need to do is becoming a safe 2nd?

Well done also to VET and VES for keeping it clean in the last race. Would have been a shitstorm had either driver ruined HAM's or ROS's day.

I mostly agree with you, though I consider Nico better than Webber and Barrichelo. But yes, this car has been tremendously dominant. The last time we saw this was in 1996 and 1989 if I am not wrong.

I also agree with the fact that Nico has driven on a very conservative mode during the last races.

[AMG.Tzan]

People are using the excuse of, "Mercedes wanted 1-2" and that is why ordered Lewis to go faster. What had stopped Nico from qualifying on pole and get ahead? Why couldn't he have tried to make a move on Lewis? It was expected from Lewis to behave like a gentleman, but it was ok to make life easier to Nico. What logic is that? Anyone remember China 2015? Nico was asking his team to tell Lewis to go faster, on a track where it was so easy to pass. Reverse the situation and put Lewis behind Nico in Abu Dhabi, would he have waited for Nico to go faster? Might not have won, like last year, but would have definitely pressurized to force the issue and win the title with authority. That is how you earn respect, races and titles, not by having your team tell your team mate to go faster. Ridiculous.

Monaco 2016 would have been a major farce if they wouldn't have let Hamilton go. Imagine, if Ric would have won the race by over minute or two because Merc didn't wanted to make way for Hamilton. Great shame for the dominant team. Ric was 18 seconds ahead when finally Merc decided let him go. It's a track where, a largely under performing W03 won the race, ahead of fast charging RB8s. Nobody can overtake there. Even a single stopping Lewis could manage to hold back a fast charging Ric this year. Again, Nico showed that how bad he is in wet conditions and he was ultra cautious and glazed his brakes by not putting enough heat into them.

The moment Lewis started charging in Russia, he was asked to slow down. The reason, water loss in engine. Seriously? But with a miracle, both cars finished 1-2. Astonishing.

In Silverstone, Nico couldn't hold back a charging, inexperienced teenager and lost the position and had no confidence when the track was wet. He had to wait for it dry and make a move.

In Baku, the team didn't wanted to risk providing information to Lewis to change the engine modes, but in Silverstone they were quick to assist Nico when he faced an issue and incur a penalty. Where is the fairness? If they would have immediately assisted Lewis in Baku, he would have probably be second and even a penalty could have made him a 3rd.

What would have happened if there was another Nico instead of Lewis in Mercedes this year in Silverstone, Monaco and Brazil? A Deserving Champion?

Totally agree with you man! And even the British media talking of how much Rosberg did since he lost to Hamilton in Austin 15 and how this one event resurrected him! I was reading an article from M. Brundle earlier and he was trying like hell to prove how much of a deserving champion Nico is! And i've been reading everywhere about reliability problems being part of formula 1 and Lewis lost it because of his mistakes...
Where are these mistakes??? Starts? Even the team admitted the inconsistency of their clutch!
Whenever Hamilton had a clean weekend (Rosberg didn't have any bad weekends) he beat Rosberg fair and square!
But people still talk of how even when Hamilton had problems, Rosberg was able to win without mistakes!! Really?
-Australia: Ferrari wrong strategy,Hamilton pushed wide by Rosberg..down to 6th, Red flag free strategy change for Rosberg to the one Hamilton was on!
-Bahrain: Vettel out before start, Hamilton hit by Bottas
-China: Hamilton starts last...gets hit at the first corner, Ferraris collide, Ricciardo's tire blows while leading
-Russia: Hamilton starts 10th, multiple accidents involving Vettel, Hamilton told to slow down while 5secs behind Rosberg
-Baku: Hamilton starts 10th, wrong setting during the race
-Spa: Hamilton starts last, Ferraris clash with Verstappen
Can't see any of these races where Rosberg was challenged by anyone so he had a difficult job on his hands! I mean he has a car capable of 0.5 or even 1 sec faster than anyone at some tracks...even Maldonando won in a Williams against Alonso which shows you that it's not that difficult winning a race while being out front!
Can't blame Rosberg for something here but...everyone must accept that Rosberg needed all of the above things to happen for him to be able to win the championship by only 5 points at the last race!! Under normal circumstances Hamilton would have won this even before the last race! It was too many things going right for him while going wrong for his competitors! This is the "undeserving champion" thing some people talk about!
And all of the above are facts! Not just an opinion!

[TAG]

some maybe might rember Monaco this year, where ROS let by HAM. Could have easily cost him the title.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JVEu5qBbe58

At the first pit stop Lewis and five other cars behind Nico would have overtaken him.

[dans79]

some maybe might rember Monaco this year, where ROS let by HAM. Could have easily cost him the title.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JVEu5qBbe58

At the first pit stop Lewis and five other cars behind Nico would have overtaken him.

For sure, I mean come on he got passed by a FI on the front strait before the finish line.

[TAG]

And it was not like nobody saw this coming. This outcome was very probable after Japan; I am also perplexed with the amount of controversy this generates.

For the record, to the people who believe Mercedes conspired with Rosberg: What do you think it means for Mercedes when a PU blows up? That's not exactly good marketing. Plus 1,500 workers can say goodbye to a bonus.

Every decision Mercedes made that did not benefit Hamilton, was made solely to benefit the team, just as every decision made that did not benefit Rosberg, was made solely to benefit the team.

I'm not saying they did, but circumstantial evidence is strong that at very many points this year, they purposely helped Rosberg. Switching the mechanics was suspect from the start. Mercedes doesn't have to do a thing, just one guy not torquing a bolt to spec is all it takes. Again not saying it would but in a sport where teams design one driver to crash in order to give the other driver the lead, it's a bit myopic to claim Mercedes never would do such a thing.

Mercedes did not tell Lewis in Baku how to change his engine mapping (suspect that it was wrong in the first place) but did tell Nico how to reset his transmission issues? Suspect.

Statistically speaking the 4-0 engine failure is astronomically freakish, again suspect.

The multiple instances where Lewis was not allowed to race Nico, taken off of tires that would have demonstrably lasted to the end of the race, effectively handing Nico a win, again suspect.

A brand new PU blowing up with what Mercedes called a freak of a one off issue and yet not a word of concern from the team for the remainder of the season, again suspect.

The bizarre instructions this weekend from the team help quite a bit to strengthen the weight of all that circumstantial evidence.

So did Mercedes think that having two WDC driving for them, one of them a German son, boosting whatever market share they could in Germany outweigh the storm of negative social media commentary? I don't know. Your comment of 1,500 employees losing their bonus is a moot point, the WCC was clinched eons ago so why not let them race this weekend or why try so hard to protect against the possibility of a 1-4 finish and Rosberg not being crowned? I don't know who or why or if anyone made decision that gave us the results we got but the result are one suspect and two not because of two bad starts made by Lewis Hamilton.

It's a year's worth of circumstantial evidence that's hard to overlook given the machinations we've seen from teams in the past.

[turbof1]

And it was not like nobody saw this coming. This outcome was very probable after Japan; I am also perplexed with the amount of controversy this generates.

For the record, to the people who believe Mercedes conspired with Rosberg: What do you think it means for Mercedes when a PU blows up? That's not exactly good marketing. Plus 1,500 workers can say goodbye to a bonus.

Every decision Mercedes made that did not benefit Hamilton, was made solely to benefit the team, just as every decision made that did not benefit Rosberg, was made solely to benefit the team.

I'm not saying they did, but circumstantial evidence is strong that at very many points this year, they purposely helped Rosberg. Switching the mechanics was suspect from the start. Mercedes doesn't have to do a thing, just one guy not torquing a bolt to spec is all it takes. Again not saying it would but in a sport where teams design one driver to crash in order to give the other driver the lead, it's a bit myopic to claim Mercedes never would do such a thing.

Mercedes did not tell Lewis in Baku how to change his engine mapping (suspect that it was wrong in the first place) but did tell Nico how to reset his transmission issues? Suspect.

Statistically speaking the 4-0 engine failure is astronomically freakish, again suspect.

The multiple instances where Lewis was not allowed to race Nico, taken off of tires that would have demonstrably lasted to the end of the race, effectively handing Nico a win, again suspect.

A brand new PU blowing up with what Mercedes called a freak of a one off issue and yet not a word of concern from the team for the remainder of the season, again suspect.

The bizarre instructions this weekend from the team help quite a bit to strengthen the weight of all that circumstantial evidence.

So did Mercedes think that having two WDC driving for them, one of them a German son, boosting whatever market share they could in Germany outweigh the storm of negative social media commentary? I don't know. Your comment of 1,500 employees losing their bonus is a moot point, the WCC was clinched eons ago so why not let them race this weekend or why try so hard to protect against the possibility of a 1-4 finish and Rosberg not being crowned? I don't know who or why or if anyone made decision that gave us the results we got but the result are one suspect and two not because of two bad starts made by Lewis Hamilton.

It's a year's worth of circumstantial evidence that's hard to overlook given the machinations we've seen from teams in the past.

I will answer only one thing because frankly it keeps going around in circles: They helped Rosberg in Silverstone because if they did not, it would have ruined the gearbox and his race. In the case of Hamilton at Baku, it was not race critical. Aiding him and picking up the penalty would have been more costly. I think that's not difficult to understand, now is it.

[TAG]

It's a volume of work, a little here a little there, the best place to hide something is in plain sight. Not saying they did it, but man the odds of all those things happening are pretty damned astronomical.

Maybe if they'd seen something in the data that Lewis' engine was going to blow, they may have told him to turn his PU down a bit to try and make it to the end of the race. Who knows. But they saw nothing, or at least that's what they say. It was just a freakish one off... that happened four times.

I'm going to enjoy Nico's title defense next year.

[GPR-A duplicate2]

I will answer only one thing because frankly it keeps going around in circles: They helped Rosberg in Silverstone because if they did not, it would have ruined the gearbox and his race. In the case of Hamilton at Baku, it was not race critical. Aiding him and picking up the penalty would have been more costly. I think that's not difficult to understand, now is it.

How do we know if Nico's gearbox issue would have been critical? May be it wouldn't have been, just like their Tire specialist had predicted that the tires will blast before the last t laps in Australia, but it didn't. The way they expected the PU to fail in Russia as the water level went zero. Just like Lewis' PU issue did not become critical in Baku. The way they expected Lewis' suspension to fail in Mexico after a big flat spot. If they would have helped Lewis in Baku, we could sing the same tune like yours, that otherwise, it would have caused a failure.

http://www.gpupdate.net/en/f1-news/3370 ... r-rosberg/

[kooleracer]

First of all congrats to Nico for winning the title, i'm a Lewis supporter but at the end of the day Nico won the championship. I'm kind of happy for Nico and Lewis that Nico won the championship. Because, the media was talking Nico down as a driver, some going as far as comparing him to the likes of Coulthard, Barichello and Webber. Nico Rosberg has one of the best junior category records and was a quick driver from the get go. Comparing Rosberg to those drivers is an insult to him I personally feel. Rosberg has been able to compete with Lewis on pace during qualifying and races during the partnership, Rosberg has outpaced (not wheel to wheel racing) Lewis when both drivers did not had a issue. Rosberg is capable of beating Lewis on his good days. Rosberg is a driver that can beat anyone on his day and Rosberg has those days frequently. I was considerd a surprise if Coulthard would beat Mika, or Rubens beat Michael and when Webber outqualified Vettel. But that isn't the case with Nico because is always close.

Now that Rosberg is a champion, beating Lewis Hamilton non the less, this will put those 2 previous champions that Hamilton won with Mercedes in a better perspective. Lewis is an elite driver one of the best drivers ever in F1, any driver to beat such a driver to the championship no matter the circumstances can not be classified as a average driver. I always held Nico in high regards. The level of consistency, but much more important the gap between him and Lewis during qualifying during the last 3 years was on average on 0.2/3 sec. If you look at the other driver pairings only Hulk & Perez and Max & Ricciardo came close. For a driver to match Lewis's single lap pace, you have to be really quick. To beat Lewis in qualifying 35-45 percent of the time deserves a lot of credit. I don't see many drivers on the gird coming that close to Lewis. Lewis and Nico make the fewest mistakes during qualifying compared to most of the other drivers only Alonso is on point. Vettel, Kimi, Max, Ricciardo and the rest always make mistakes or complain about other factors. Nico never complains he can maximize the cars potential almost every single weekend.

People will say but, Max and Ricciardo can outrace Rosberg during wheel to wheel. However, during a season Nico single lap pace during quali would triumph his disadvantage against those two drivers. We have all seen that when Nico is out in front even Lewis can catch him. Nico's consistency during quali is what brought him this title not his ability to race wheel to wheel. Nico is not the best races, but before you can race a guy you have to be able to catch him or qualify ahead of him. I don't think many drivers could manage that as well as Lewis has done during the last 3 seasons. Therefore, I evaluate Lewis his to titles against Nico massively, but I more so appreciate Nico's tenacity to comeback a third season and winning the championship.

And people saying that the engine blow up if Malaysia cost Lewis the title are right, but that only shows the level of competitiveness of Rosberg. Everything had to go perfect for Lewis before him to be able to beat Rosberg. We have seen team mates (Barichello, Webber) in dominant cars that couldn't even finish second in the championship, despite their teammates dominating the season.

For me the list was beginning of the season:

1. Hamilton
2. Alonso
3. Vettel
4. Rosberg /Riccardio/Verstappen
5.Raikonnen/Button/ Hulkenberg /Perez/Sainz Jr.

But after this season

1. Hamilton
2. Alonso
3. Rosberg
4. Verstappen / Ricciardo
5. Vettel/Raikonnen/
6.Hulkenberg / Perez / Sainz Jr./ Button

[santos]

If Mercedes helped Rosberg to win the title, why didn't they helped him to win more races? Why didn't people said the same in 2014, when Lewis won the championship and had 3 DNF while Rosberg had 2?

[turbof1]

I will answer only one thing because frankly it keeps going around in circles: They helped Rosberg in Silverstone because if they did not, it would have ruined the gearbox and his race. In the case of Hamilton at Baku, it was not race critical. Aiding him and picking up the penalty would have been more costly. I think that's not difficult to understand, now is it.

How do we know if Nico's gearbox issue would have been critical? May be it wouldn't have been, just like their Tire specialist had predicted that the tires will blast before the last t laps in Australia, but it didn't. The way they expected the PU to fail in Russia as the water level went zero. Just like Lewis' PU issue did not become critical in Baku. The way they expected Lewis' suspension to fail in Mexico after a big flat spot. If they would have helped Lewis in Baku, we could sing the same tune like yours, that otherwise, it would have caused a failure.

http://www.gpupdate.net/en/f1-news/3370 ... r-rosberg/

So what you are basically saying is that running stuck in 7th gear, a gear they specifically told him to avoid, is not detrimental to the gearbox at all. Infact it'll probably allow races to be won while lapping the while grid 5 times?

Understood, GPR-A. Very great insight there.

[TAG]

If Mercedes helped Rosberg to win the title, why didn't they helped him to win more races?

They gave him three uncontested race wins where Hamilton started way further back. What more could they have done? Apparently they never expected it to be as close as it wound up at the end. In hindsight they may have done a little more.

[GPR-A duplicate2]

So what you are basically saying is that running stuck in 7th gear, a gear they specifically told him to avoid, is not detrimental to the gearbox at all. Infact it'll probably allow races to be won while lapping the while grid 5 times?

Understood, GPR-A. Very great insight there.

First of all, it was rubbish and ill conceived, whoever thought of putting ban on helping the drivers on technical issues on these ultra complex cars. Racing assistance shouldn't be provided, good.

The team that was quick to jump in and help Nico, didn't showed the same tenacity in helping Lewis in baku. He did asked specifically to the team, if he can try different settings for which his race engineer said, "we wouldn't advice you to do that". That was to say, just be stuck there. But miraculously, the settings come back to life after a while.

And who knows, just like Nico figured out the engine settings issue in Baku, he could have fiddled a bit and then would have managed to get out of the problem OR may be just like how Lewis' engine settings came back to life, Nico's gear box would have also started working. We have seen many a times that drivers do manage to reset their cars without help (Lewis did a similar thing in 2007 Brazilian GP ).