TERS : Thermal Energy Recovery System

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
Vary
Vary
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Joined: 09 Sep 2014, 14:56

Re: TERS : Thermal Energy Recovery System

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gruntguru wrote:
Frank_ wrote:
gruntguru wrote: You are both right. There is one mechanism that transforms some of the heat energy in the exhaust into exhaust pressure and/or velocity. (Called isentropic expansion). There is a second mechanism that transforms some of the exhaust pressure or velocity into electrical energy. (Called a turbine + MGUH)
that makes a lot of sense gruntguru :)
with regards to power consumption of the actual compressor tho (did you state 100kw somewhere ?) most turbo,s connecting shafts are only 5 or 6mm dia, so how can a 400hp disco potato 6mm shaft transmit so much power through it ? (albeit @ 150k rpm)
I think you have answered your own question. At 125k rpm (F1 limit for MGUH), 8 Nm of torque gives 105 kW.

Actually, the turbo doesn't exceed 90k rpm, as stated here (http://www.formula1benzing.eu/ungheria2014.html it's in italian) using telemetries data

gruntguru
gruntguru
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Re: TERS : Thermal Energy Recovery System

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That is a great link Vary. Particularly interesting is the boost analysis performed using acoustic turbine speed analysis. I am not sure what he is doing in regard to the following issues.

1. Frequency. If all turbine blades were identical the fundamental frequency would be the blade-pass frequency which is many times higher than the turbine speed. A knowledge of the number of blades would obviously fix that. Are there photos getting around? Alternatively a defect on the turbine or compressor wheel (perhaps a balance relief) would give a signature at turbine speed.

2. Boost. Estimating boost from rotor speed requires a knowledge of compressor tip diameter. I wonder if the author has that dimension for each PU? He seems to assume each PU has the same compressor diameter - is this likely?

Interesting - he nominates the max boost used for each PU. Ferrari 3.0, Renault 3.05, Mercedes 3.15. This reinforces one thing about Mercedes. At least part of their advantage is higher boost, higher mass-flow, leaner mixture and higher turbine power.

Further there have been many suggestions that Mercedes use a larger turbine. Do they also use a larger compressor? A larger diameter compressor? Is the Mercedes boost even higher than estimated in the article?
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Vary
Vary
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Joined: 09 Sep 2014, 14:56

Re: TERS : Thermal Energy Recovery System

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gruntguru wrote:That is a great link Vary. Particularly interesting is the boost analysis performed using acoustic turbine speed analysis. I am not sure what he is doing in regard to the following issues.

1. Frequency. If all turbine blades were identical the fundamental frequency would be the blade-pass frequency which is many times higher than the turbine speed. A knowledge of the number of blades would obviously fix that. Are there photos getting around? Alternatively a defect on the turbine or compressor wheel (perhaps a balance relief) would give a signature at turbine speed.

2. Boost. Estimating boost from rotor speed requires a knowledge of compressor tip diameter. I wonder if the author has that dimension for each PU? He seems to assume each PU has the same compressor diameter - is this likely?

Interesting - he nominates the max boost used for each PU. Ferrari 3.0, Renault 3.05, Mercedes 3.15. This reinforces one thing about Mercedes. At least part of their advantage is higher boost, higher mass-flow, leaner mixture and higher turbine power.

Further there have been many suggestions that Mercedes use a larger turbine. Do they also use a larger compressor? A larger diameter compressor? Is the Mercedes boost even higher than estimated in the article?
I don't know how he calculated the turbine speed, always assumed that used telemetry datas, because a lot Of Times he says that some friends inside the circus give him datas. Regarding boost pressure, you have also to consider that he is talking about the hungarian gp, and that during the season boost pressure increased continuosly, so probably in the last races they used higher boost.

Another very interesting thing in that article is the evaluation Of engine power, but probably this has to be discussed i nano their thread :wink:

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PlatinumZealot
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Joined: 12 Jun 2008, 03:45

Re: TERS : Thermal Energy Recovery System

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gruntguru wrote:That is a great link Vary. Particularly interesting is the boost analysis performed using acoustic turbine speed analysis. I am not sure what he is doing in regard to the following issues.

1. Frequency. If all turbine blades were identical the fundamental frequency would be the blade-pass frequency which is many times higher than the turbine speed. A knowledge of the number of blades would obviously fix that. Are there photos getting around? Alternatively a defect on the turbine or compressor wheel (perhaps a balance relief) would give a signature at turbine speed.

2. Boost. Estimating boost from rotor speed requires a knowledge of compressor tip diameter. I wonder if the author has that dimension for each PU? He seems to assume each PU has the same compressor diameter - is this likely?

Interesting - he nominates the max boost used for each PU. Ferrari 3.0, Renault 3.05, Mercedes 3.15. This reinforces one thing about Mercedes. At least part of their advantage is higher boost, higher mass-flow, leaner mixture and higher turbine power.

Further there have been many suggestions that Mercedes use a larger turbine. Do they also use a larger compressor? A larger diameter compressor? Is the Mercedes boost even higher than estimated in the article?
By photos alone, Merc's compressor is pretty large. The inlet is at least four inches in diameter by eyeballing it. it's any one's guess what is the actual size of the inducer though.
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PlatinumZealot
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Re: TERS : Thermal Energy Recovery System

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Vary he probably estimated that the air is moving at the speed of sound at some radial coordinate along the compressor wheel. He probably applied some value for slip and such.
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Brian Coat
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Joined: 16 Jun 2012, 18:42

Re: TERS : Thermal Energy Recovery System

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I missed anything in the article about turbine speed from acoustic analysis?

I thought it was labelled as telemetry data?

Interestingly, Ferrari *published* some telemetry data for that race anyway (but not boost or turbo speed).

wuzak
wuzak
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Re: TERS : Thermal Energy Recovery System

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Ferrari and Renault are restricted somewhat by the position of the compressor - in or near the vee of the engine.

Mercedes' engine just looks large.

Compare this:

Image

To this:

Image

rgava
rgava
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Joined: 03 Mar 2015, 17:15

Re: TERS : Thermal Energy Recovery System

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Could it be that Merc is using a gear between the turbo and the MGU-H?
Perhaps a high speed turbine with lower speed MGU/Compressor is their real advantage.

Moose
Moose
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Joined: 03 Oct 2014, 19:41

Re: TERS : Thermal Energy Recovery System

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rgava wrote:Could it be that Merc is using a gear between the turbo and the MGU-H?
Perhaps a high speed turbine with lower speed MGU/Compressor is their real advantage.
No, that's against the rules.

wuzak
wuzak
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Joined: 30 Aug 2011, 03:26

Re: TERS : Thermal Energy Recovery System

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Moose wrote:
rgava wrote:Could it be that Merc is using a gear between the turbo and the MGU-H?
Perhaps a high speed turbine with lower speed MGU/Compressor is their real advantage.
No, that's against the rules.
No, it is not against the rules.

The rules specify a fixed speed ratio between the MGUH and turbo.

hurril
hurril
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Joined: 07 Oct 2014, 13:02

Re: TERS : Thermal Energy Recovery System

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wuzak wrote:
Moose wrote:
rgava wrote:Could it be that Merc is using a gear between the turbo and the MGU-H?
Perhaps a high speed turbine with lower speed MGU/Compressor is their real advantage.
No, that's against the rules.
No, it is not against the rules.

The rules specify a fixed speed ratio between the MGUH and turbo.
They also specify that the turbine and the compressor parts of the turbo must run at the same speed.

wuzak
wuzak
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Re: TERS : Thermal Energy Recovery System

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hurril wrote:
wuzak wrote:
Moose wrote: No, that's against the rules.
No, it is not against the rules.

The rules specify a fixed speed ratio between the MGUH and turbo.
They also specify that the turbine and the compressor parts of the turbo must run at the same speed.
Yes, but not the MGUH.

hurril
hurril
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Joined: 07 Oct 2014, 13:02

Re: TERS : Thermal Energy Recovery System

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wuzak wrote: Yes, but not the MGUH.
I know. The comment I responded to suggested otherwise.

Moose
Moose
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Joined: 03 Oct 2014, 19:41

Re: TERS : Thermal Energy Recovery System

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wuzak wrote:
hurril wrote:
wuzak wrote:No, it is not against the rules.

The rules specify a fixed speed ratio between the MGUH and turbo.
They also specify that the turbine and the compressor parts of the turbo must run at the same speed.
Yes, but not the MGUH.
However, if you go back and reread you'll see that what was being suggested was having the compressor run at a different speed (along with the MGUH), so yes... yes it is against the rules.

wuzak
wuzak
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Joined: 30 Aug 2011, 03:26

Re: TERS : Thermal Energy Recovery System

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Moose wrote:However, if you go back and reread you'll see that what was being suggested was having the compressor run at a different speed (along with the MGUH), so yes... yes it is against the rules.
Quite right. My apologies.

Yes, the compressor cannot be geared and must spin at the turbine's rpm.