2023 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

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Xyz22
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Re: 2023 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

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Vanja #66 wrote:
12 Jul 2023, 20:21
In Miami it looked like Ferrari are not even going to jump ahead of Merc, let alone AMR. At that point, it didn't look like Leclerc, or anyone else, has any other option for a title other than Mercedes - since Red Bull is taken.

Right now, they made a mess of Silverstone race, but the car is still 2nd fastest of Top 4 teams. So things changed for the better and they keep changing. If the trend continues to be positive, it might again look like Ferrari is the best chance for a title other than Red Bull...
I doubt that even the perfect Ferrari would have matched the McL which has been the closest car to RB yet this year i think.

Anyway i think that Leclerc won't do anything before seeing the 2024 car. There is no way he will trust the data coming out of the simulator and wind tunnel.

CMSMJ1
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Re: 2023 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

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I read a lot in here..rarely post as there are some strong convictions and to be fair, I'm just a fan of the racing.

Ferrari though...how is it they struggle so much to get the last 2%?

Car - generally fast - maybe not fastest in any year, but very much top 3 "most" of the time... a dog is rare.
Strategy - generally terrible - how do they fall so often into the proverbial bucket of **stuff** and come out sucking their thumbs?
Drivers - generally a strong and capable pairing and that you could argue that most teams on the grid would drop one or both of their incumbent drivers for one or the other.

How do they manage to drop the ball? What causes it? How, in all honesty since Raikkonen in 2007 (and then clutching it by the McLaren team really imploding) have they not managed to win either championship with peak Alonso or Vettel?*

Is it the regs? A baked in advantage is never lost? A team who fails to deliver loses the year from that point?

I would love to see a new Ferrari WDC and WCC - will it be any time soon - doesn't feel like it and that is worrisome. I think that there is more chance of McLaren winning a championship, or even Aston with a massive hurrah.


*reader - Yes, I know RBR and Merc have totally nailed the field since 2010....but come on Ferrari!
IMPERATOR REX ANGLORUM

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Vanja #66
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Re: 2023 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

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Xyz22 wrote:
12 Jul 2023, 21:20
I doubt that even the perfect Ferrari would have matched the McL which has been the closest car to RB yet this year i think.
Max was managing his pace and top speed again this race, unlike Austria where RB flexed their muscles to the fullest. Also, Ferrari was slower than they could have gone, as explained by Vasseur.

CMSMJ1 wrote:
12 Jul 2023, 22:43
I read a lot in here..rarely post as there are some strong convictions and to be fair, I'm just a fan of the racing.

Ferrari though...how is it they struggle so much to get the last 2%?

Car - generally fast - maybe not fastest in any year, but very much top 3 "most" of the time... a dog is rare.
Strategy - generally terrible - how do they fall so often into the proverbial bucket of **stuff** and come out sucking their thumbs?
Drivers - generally a strong and capable pairing and that you could argue that most teams on the grid would drop one or both of their incumbent drivers for one or the other.

How do they manage to drop the ball? What causes it? How, in all honesty since Raikkonen in 2007 (and then clutching it by the McLaren team really imploding) have they not managed to win either championship with peak Alonso or Vettel?*

Is it the regs? A baked in advantage is never lost? A team who fails to deliver loses the year from that point?

I would love to see a new Ferrari WDC and WCC - will it be any time soon - doesn't feel like it and that is worrisome. I think that there is more chance of McLaren winning a championship, or even Aston with a massive hurrah.


*reader - Yes, I know RBR and Merc have totally nailed the field since 2010....but come on Ferrari!
Some of us have been trying to figure out the same thing since the mentioned 2007 title :mrgreen:

Alonso and Ferrari lost the 2010 title together in the last race. They underestimated both Vettel and Petrov as well. You could argue Alonso's crash at Spa was also something that could have been avoided and would have probably brought him the title. 2010 was huge for Vettel and his confidence and he was very much a confidence driver, more than some other champions. There's no telling how the following 3 seasons would have gone had Alonso won in 2010, especially Vettel-Webber relations in the team.

Vettel in 2017 and 18 had half a chance in each season (before and after the car wasn't there), Merc was still more powerful and could afford more drag for more downforce and still match Ferrari on straights. Vettel also made a few mistakes on his own, more in 2018, while some of Hamilton's driving opponents off the track was allowed as usual.

Last year, it's hard to tell if TD39 would have lost Ferrari the title even if they were perfect after Australia and used all of their chances. Most certainly, PU troubles and amateurish strategy lost them more points than TD did.

Overall, it turned out they never had a true race-winning car throughout the entire season since 2010 and that's kind of the biggest thing. Other than that, strategy department has been degrading visibly in the last few years, while Binotto's deal with FIA in 2019 turned out to be a terrible thing for the PU and we still can't say for sure if all the PU reliability problems of last year have been sorted now.

In short, they are too big to drop too low, but ever since Todd-Brawn-Byrne team departed the team has never been on the same level. RB and Merc were simply far better race teams in the last 15 years, taking utmost care of every single aspect of their operations. I'd argue the same thing can be applied to McLaren in this same period, but McLaren also had financial trouble that set them back further at times.
And they call it a stall. A STALL!

#DwarvesAreNaturalSprinters
#BlessYouLaddie

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F1NAC
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Joined: 31 Mar 2013, 22:35

Re: 2023 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

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How much are they limited with employing highly skilled engineers that are mostly located around british teams and don't won't to move to Italy?

How much would it cost them to make remote office in UK and work on relation UK-Maranello?

Fakepivot
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Re: 2023 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

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I know the current car is unpredictable with setup, but Ferrari should start to maximize their package race in and out, right now its such a roller costar ride. look at merc last season even if their car was not good, they maximized their package and fought Ferrari for p2 in wcc till last race, even if they struggle to qualify, they end up with consistent points.

CMSMJ1
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Re: 2023 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

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Vanja #66 wrote:
13 Jul 2023, 09:39
Xyz22 wrote:
12 Jul 2023, 21:20
I doubt that even the perfect Ferrari would have matched the McL which has been the closest car to RB yet this year i think.
Max was managing his pace and top speed again this race, unlike Austria where RB flexed their muscles to the fullest. Also, Ferrari was slower than they could have gone, as explained by Vasseur.

CMSMJ1 wrote:
12 Jul 2023, 22:43
I read a lot in here..rarely post as there are some strong convictions and to be fair, I'm just a fan of the racing.

Ferrari though...how is it they struggle so much to get the last 2%?

Car - generally fast - maybe not fastest in any year, but very much top 3 "most" of the time... a dog is rare.
Strategy - generally terrible - how do they fall so often into the proverbial bucket of **stuff** and come out sucking their thumbs?
Drivers - generally a strong and capable pairing and that you could argue that most teams on the grid would drop one or both of their incumbent drivers for one or the other.

How do they manage to drop the ball? What causes it? How, in all honesty since Raikkonen in 2007 (and then clutching it by the McLaren team really imploding) have they not managed to win either championship with peak Alonso or Vettel?*

Is it the regs? A baked in advantage is never lost? A team who fails to deliver loses the year from that point?

I would love to see a new Ferrari WDC and WCC - will it be any time soon - doesn't feel like it and that is worrisome. I think that there is more chance of McLaren winning a championship, or even Aston with a massive hurrah.


*reader - Yes, I know RBR and Merc have totally nailed the field since 2010....but come on Ferrari!
Some of us have been trying to figure out the same thing since the mentioned 2007 title :mrgreen:

Alonso and Ferrari lost the 2010 title together in the last race. They underestimated both Vettel and Petrov as well. You could argue Alonso's crash at Spa was also something that could have been avoided and would have probably brought him the title. 2010 was huge for Vettel and his confidence and he was very much a confidence driver, more than some other champions. There's no telling how the following 3 seasons would have gone had Alonso won in 2010, especially Vettel-Webber relations in the team.

Vettel in 2017 and 18 had half a chance in each season (before and after the car wasn't there), Merc was still more powerful and could afford more drag for more downforce and still match Ferrari on straights. Vettel also made a few mistakes on his own, more in 2018, while some of Hamilton's driving opponents off the track was allowed as usual.

Last year, it's hard to tell if TD39 would have lost Ferrari the title even if they were perfect after Australia and used all of their chances. Most certainly, PU troubles and amateurish strategy lost them more points than TD did.

Overall, it turned out they never had a true race-winning car throughout the entire season since 2010 and that's kind of the biggest thing. Other than that, strategy department has been degrading visibly in the last few years, while Binotto's deal with FIA in 2019 turned out to be a terrible thing for the PU and we still can't say for sure if all the PU reliability problems of last year have been sorted now.

In short, they are too big to drop too low, but ever since Todd-Brawn-Byrne team departed the team has never been on the same level. RB and Merc were simply far better race teams in the last 15 years, taking utmost care of every single aspect of their operations. I'd argue the same thing can be applied to McLaren in this same period, but McLaren also had financial trouble that set them back further at times.
Yes - Indeed. All makes sense and reading that it is still clear that there was no joy since 2010 and I think your point about Abu Dhabi and the poor strategy that allowed an underdog Vettel to come through was a key turning point in the life of F1.

I can imagine being a deeply commited Ferrari fan has been really depressing for years!
IMPERATOR REX ANGLORUM

Willy
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Re: 2023 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

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F1NAC wrote:
13 Jul 2023, 09:56
How much are they limited with employing highly skilled engineers that are mostly located around british teams and don't won't to move to Italy?

How much would it cost them to make remote office in UK and work on relation UK-Maranello?
There is too much pride to move out of Italy. They tried once by having an office in UK with John Barnard, but it didn't find success instantly and junked it. Newey in all these years and some of the top names from Red Bull that Ferrari recently approached, have all turned down Ferrari offer as it requires them to move to Italy. From that sense, they are definitely limited. Yet, they have done a fine job time and again to build a competitive car, but in season development almost always goes astray. Their strategy department has always been a mess. Everything is a surprise for them! I doubt if they ever change. But it would be a joy to see them win the titles again!

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FW17
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Re: 2023 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

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Vanja #66 wrote:
13 Jul 2023, 09:39
Xyz22 wrote:
12 Jul 2023, 21:20
I doubt that even the perfect Ferrari would have matched the McL which has been the closest car to RB yet this year i think.
Max was managing his pace and top speed again this race, unlike Austria where RB flexed their muscles to the fullest. Also, Ferrari was slower than they could have gone, as explained by Vasseur.

CMSMJ1 wrote:
12 Jul 2023, 22:43
I read a lot in here..rarely post as there are some strong convictions and to be fair, I'm just a fan of the racing.

Ferrari though...how is it they struggle so much to get the last 2%?

Car - generally fast - maybe not fastest in any year, but very much top 3 "most" of the time... a dog is rare.
Strategy - generally terrible - how do they fall so often into the proverbial bucket of **stuff** and come out sucking their thumbs?
Drivers - generally a strong and capable pairing and that you could argue that most teams on the grid would drop one or both of their incumbent drivers for one or the other.

How do they manage to drop the ball? What causes it? How, in all honesty since Raikkonen in 2007 (and then clutching it by the McLaren team really imploding) have they not managed to win either championship with peak Alonso or Vettel?*

Is it the regs? A baked in advantage is never lost? A team who fails to deliver loses the year from that point?

I would love to see a new Ferrari WDC and WCC - will it be any time soon - doesn't feel like it and that is worrisome. I think that there is more chance of McLaren winning a championship, or even Aston with a massive hurrah.


*reader - Yes, I know RBR and Merc have totally nailed the field since 2010....but come on Ferrari!
Some of us have been trying to figure out the same thing since the mentioned 2007 title :mrgreen:

Alonso and Ferrari lost the 2010 title together in the last race. They underestimated both Vettel and Petrov as well. You could argue Alonso's crash at Spa was also something that could have been avoided and would have probably brought him the title. 2010 was huge for Vettel and his confidence and he was very much a confidence driver, more than some other champions. There's no telling how the following 3 seasons would have gone had Alonso won in 2010, especially Vettel-Webber relations in the team.

Vettel in 2017 and 18 had half a chance in each season (before and after the car wasn't there), Merc was still more powerful and could afford more drag for more downforce and still match Ferrari on straights. Vettel also made a few mistakes on his own, more in 2018, while some of Hamilton's driving opponents off the track was allowed as usual.

Last year, it's hard to tell if TD39 would have lost Ferrari the title even if they were perfect after Australia and used all of their chances. Most certainly, PU troubles and amateurish strategy lost them more points than TD did.

Overall, it turned out they never had a true race-winning car throughout the entire season since 2010 and that's kind of the biggest thing. Other than that, strategy department has been degrading visibly in the last few years, while Binotto's deal with FIA in 2019 turned out to be a terrible thing for the PU and we still can't say for sure if all the PU reliability problems of last year have been sorted now.

In short, they are too big to drop too low, but ever since Todd-Brawn-Byrne team departed the team has never been on the same level. RB and Merc were simply far better race teams in the last 15 years, taking utmost care of every single aspect of their operations. I'd argue the same thing can be applied to McLaren in this same period, but McLaren also had financial trouble that set them back further at times.
All the issues could be explained by loss of this

Image

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F1NAC
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Joined: 31 Mar 2013, 22:35

Re: 2023 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

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FW17 wrote:
13 Jul 2023, 11:41
Vanja #66 wrote:
13 Jul 2023, 09:39
Xyz22 wrote:
12 Jul 2023, 21:20
I doubt that even the perfect Ferrari would have matched the McL which has been the closest car to RB yet this year i think.
Max was managing his pace and top speed again this race, unlike Austria where RB flexed their muscles to the fullest. Also, Ferrari was slower than they could have gone, as explained by Vasseur.

CMSMJ1 wrote:
12 Jul 2023, 22:43
I read a lot in here..rarely post as there are some strong convictions and to be fair, I'm just a fan of the racing.

Ferrari though...how is it they struggle so much to get the last 2%?

Car - generally fast - maybe not fastest in any year, but very much top 3 "most" of the time... a dog is rare.
Strategy - generally terrible - how do they fall so often into the proverbial bucket of **stuff** and come out sucking their thumbs?
Drivers - generally a strong and capable pairing and that you could argue that most teams on the grid would drop one or both of their incumbent drivers for one or the other.

How do they manage to drop the ball? What causes it? How, in all honesty since Raikkonen in 2007 (and then clutching it by the McLaren team really imploding) have they not managed to win either championship with peak Alonso or Vettel?*

Is it the regs? A baked in advantage is never lost? A team who fails to deliver loses the year from that point?

I would love to see a new Ferrari WDC and WCC - will it be any time soon - doesn't feel like it and that is worrisome. I think that there is more chance of McLaren winning a championship, or even Aston with a massive hurrah.


*reader - Yes, I know RBR and Merc have totally nailed the field since 2010....but come on Ferrari!
Some of us have been trying to figure out the same thing since the mentioned 2007 title :mrgreen:

Alonso and Ferrari lost the 2010 title together in the last race. They underestimated both Vettel and Petrov as well. You could argue Alonso's crash at Spa was also something that could have been avoided and would have probably brought him the title. 2010 was huge for Vettel and his confidence and he was very much a confidence driver, more than some other champions. There's no telling how the following 3 seasons would have gone had Alonso won in 2010, especially Vettel-Webber relations in the team.

Vettel in 2017 and 18 had half a chance in each season (before and after the car wasn't there), Merc was still more powerful and could afford more drag for more downforce and still match Ferrari on straights. Vettel also made a few mistakes on his own, more in 2018, while some of Hamilton's driving opponents off the track was allowed as usual.

Last year, it's hard to tell if TD39 would have lost Ferrari the title even if they were perfect after Australia and used all of their chances. Most certainly, PU troubles and amateurish strategy lost them more points than TD did.

Overall, it turned out they never had a true race-winning car throughout the entire season since 2010 and that's kind of the biggest thing. Other than that, strategy department has been degrading visibly in the last few years, while Binotto's deal with FIA in 2019 turned out to be a terrible thing for the PU and we still can't say for sure if all the PU reliability problems of last year have been sorted now.

In short, they are too big to drop too low, but ever since Todd-Brawn-Byrne team departed the team has never been on the same level. RB and Merc were simply far better race teams in the last 15 years, taking utmost care of every single aspect of their operations. I'd argue the same thing can be applied to McLaren in this same period, but McLaren also had financial trouble that set them back further at times.
All the issues could be explained by loss of this

https://static.displate.com/857x1200/di ... 3689e2.jpg
Is it?

Didn't they ran sf71H during 2021 season in and out to calibrate new sim, that eventually didn't deliver results on track because they mentioned sometime they had correlation issues?

Xyz22
Xyz22
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Re: 2023 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

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Interesting comp between Ferrari and McL during quali and during the race (2 different laps in the first stint)

Image

Again we can easily see how the balance of performance changes from quali to race as Ferrari drivers are no longer able to outperform the McL in some of the fast corners.

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Vanja #66
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Joined: 19 Mar 2012, 16:38

Re: 2023 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

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CMSMJ1 wrote:
13 Jul 2023, 11:21
I can imagine being a deeply commited Ferrari fan has been really depressing for years!
We're together with McLaren fans in this, what doesn't destroy you makes you stronger :mrgreen:

FW17 wrote:
13 Jul 2023, 11:41
All the issues could be explained by loss of this

https://static.displate.com/857x1200/di ... 3689e2.jpg
In more ways than by simply cutting off the testing allowance. Ferrari made a mistake at some point that they didn't upgrade their simulation tools, both CFD and driving simulator (probably the most important tools right now) on time. I'm not sure when it started being obvious, but it was a while ago that the FIA started cutting down on in-season testing and it was always going to lead to complete testing ban. I can see FOM and FIA outlawing pre-season testing altogether very soon, and give teams 2 extra free practices for the first race just for the shakedown purposes. Maybe not even that.

At the moment, it would be hard to argue against RB as leaders in simulation tools. They started forming the team right when FIA started cutting down on testing, which would put them in a situation where the only reasonable thing would be to invest heavily in simulation tools since this would have been the performance driver in the near future. And this is exactly what happened.
And they call it a stall. A STALL!

#DwarvesAreNaturalSprinters
#BlessYouLaddie

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codetower
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Joined: 15 Sep 2020, 16:47

Re: 2023 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

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CMSMJ1 wrote:
13 Jul 2023, 11:21
I can imagine being a deeply commited Ferrari fan has been really depressing for years!
You have no idea... But it's not as painful as missing out on the world cup for the first time in, well, ever.. and missing it again. But that is for another forum.
Vanja #66 wrote:
13 Jul 2023, 14:23

In more ways than by simply cutting off the testing allowance. Ferrari made a mistake at some point that they didn't upgrade their simulation tools, both CFD and driving simulator (probably the most important tools right now) on time. I'm not sure when it started being obvious, but it was a while ago that the FIA started cutting down on in-season testing and it was always going to lead to complete testing ban. I can see FOM and FIA outlawing pre-season testing altogether very soon, and give teams 2 extra free practices for the first race just for the shakedown purposes. Maybe not even that.

At the moment, it would be hard to argue against RB as leaders in simulation tools. They started forming the team right when FIA started cutting down on testing, which would put them in a situation where the only reasonable thing would be to invest heavily in simulation tools since this would have been the performance driver in the near future. And this is exactly what happened.
Is it really a lack of good simulation tools? a couple of years ago their new simulator was lauded as being a "game changer". In my opinion, the tools are only as good as the team interpreting the data and results. There just seems to be a disconnect between all departments. I'm hopeful Vasseur can close these gaps.

On a side note, what's the thought on this article: https://scuderiafans.com/top-f1-driver- ... oe-saward/

How reliable is Joe Saward? According to that article, theres a "top" driver with a pre-contract agreement for 2025 with Ferrari. He thinks it's Lando Norris. If Charles is still here, I'm not sure I like the dynamic. If Charles leaves then it makes more sense. I don't think teams generally succeed with two #1's. I think you need a HAM/BOT, VET/WEB, VER/Whoever type of lineup to get the most.

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FW17
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Joined: 06 Jan 2010, 10:56

Re: 2023 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

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Vanja #66 wrote:
13 Jul 2023, 14:23
CMSMJ1 wrote:
13 Jul 2023, 11:21
I can imagine being a deeply commited Ferrari fan has been really depressing for years!
We're together with McLaren fans in this, what doesn't destroy you makes you stronger :mrgreen:

FW17 wrote:
13 Jul 2023, 11:41
All the issues could be explained by loss of this

https://static.displate.com/857x1200/di ... 3689e2.jpg
In more ways than by simply cutting off the testing allowance. Ferrari made a mistake at some point that they didn't upgrade their simulation tools, both CFD and driving simulator (probably the most important tools right now) on time. I'm not sure when it started being obvious, but it was a while ago that the FIA started cutting down on in-season testing and it was always going to lead to complete testing ban. I can see FOM and FIA outlawing pre-season testing altogether very soon, and give teams 2 extra free practices for the first race just for the shakedown purposes. Maybe not even that.

At the moment, it would be hard to argue against RB as leaders in simulation tools. They started forming the team right when FIA started cutting down on testing, which would put them in a situation where the only reasonable thing would be to invest heavily in simulation tools since this would have been the performance driver in the near future. And this is exactly what happened.

Ferrari were behind in the concept in 2009 with the double diffuser. Something that was not fixed for most of the season. When it was introduced the team had to do the testing and fine tuning on track which ideally they would have been done at Fiorino. This was a lasting damage to Ferrari, no team was ahead in sim tools in 2009 everyone were hit by the testing ban and Ferrari which did the most testing was affected the most.

Ideas that could have been developed much faster if open testing was available too many months, sole reason why Red Bull were able to dominate 2009-13.

14' onwards they were screwed by the engine and were dumb enough to go with a token system from year one. There was a massive gap between it and Mercedes, how much ever some press would like to claim that Hamilton beat Vettel in 17 and 18 in a better Ferrari.

Yes management screwed up, but the issues they lost some of their key advantages like unlimited budget,testing etc.

AR3-GP
AR3-GP
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Joined: 06 Jul 2021, 01:22

Re: 2023 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

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Vanja #66 wrote:
13 Jul 2023, 09:39
Xyz22 wrote:
12 Jul 2023, 21:20
I doubt that even the perfect Ferrari would have matched the McL which has been the closest car to RB yet this year i think.
Max was managing his pace and top speed again this race, unlike Austria where RB flexed their muscles to the fullest. Also, Ferrari was slower than they could have gone, as explained by Vasseur.
Would you mind posting telemetry in RBR thread? I’m on mobile currently.
A lion must kill its prey.

Macklaren
Macklaren
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Re: 2023 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

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codetower wrote:
13 Jul 2023, 15:56
.

On a side note, what's the thought on this article: https://scuderiafans.com/top-f1-driver- ... oe-saward/

How reliable is Joe Saward? According to that article, theres a "top" driver with a pre-contract agreement for 2025 with Ferrari. He thinks it's Lando Norris. If Charles is still here, I'm not sure I like the dynamic. If Charles leaves then it makes more sense. I don't think teams generally succeed with two #1's. I think you need a HAM/BOT, VET/WEB, VER/Whoever type of lineup to get the most.
Joe is the most reliable journalist in the paddock. That said, his article clearly states that he does not believe the rumors to be true. When he does believe it, he says it clearly