McLaren MP4-26 Mercedes

A place to discuss the characteristics of the cars in Formula One, both current as well as historical. Laptimes, driver worshipping and team chatter do not belong here.
feynman
feynman
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Joined: 02 Mar 2010, 20:36

Re: McLaren MP4-26 Mercedes

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[...]
A Mercedes car goes faster in a straight line than a McLaren car, you can still conclude nothing about chassis-generated drag from that statement.
Perhaps the Mercedes overheats and blisters it's tyres in race conditions and must be configured to minimize cornering loads and compensates on the straights. Perhaps a McLaren works it's tyres more effectively and is configured for more downforce, gaining much more in the corners and over race stints with less tyre degradation or with improved tyre temperature in the damp, than it loses down any straight.

... So, in one simple jump, we moved from talking about speed traps to inspecting suspension geometry

The design efficiency and performance of competing wings will not necessarily be equal nor the performance plots be linear.
Perhaps a skinny McLaren rear-wing generates equal drag as an equivalent low drag Mercedes wing but generates less downforce for that drag and is therefore ultimately slower.
Perhaps a high downforce McLaren wing generates much, much more downforce than an equivalent high downforce Mercedes wing. In that situation Mercedes optimum solution would be to run low drag and be fast down the straight, McLaren would run high drag and be faster round the lap.
Again from this conjecture we have learned absolutely nothing about the relative drag generated by the respective chassis shapes.

Standing on the outside, without access to the race-engineer setup sheets or factory data, just looking at a facile speed trap number and then trying to argue one way or the other about radiator drag co-efficient is, and will always be, an utterly futile exercise.
And definitely not an argument worth getting worked up about.
Last edited by Steven on 17 Jun 2011, 12:42, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Removed personal comments

alelanza
alelanza
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Joined: 16 Jun 2008, 05:05
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Re: McLaren MP4-26 Mercedes

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In Canada, if you consider Button vs Vettel's best sector times of qualy vs race, you'll see that:

Vettel was overall 5.92% slower in the race, vs Button who was 4.26% slower. That means that overall Vettel lost 38.87% more than what button lost.

Sector 1: Vettel lost 17.16% more than Button
Sector 2: Vettel lost 65.90% more than Button
Sector 3: Vettel lost 38.87% more than Button

I should note that Vettel's trap speed on sector 3 was over 10 kph slower than Webber's, and 8.9 kph slower than his own during qualy, which makes me think he was never able to latch onto any backmarker and activate DRS, at least not when the conditions allowed for a good enough top speed. That being said his best sector 3 is still better than Webber's, so take that as you may.

Anyways, can any theories be drawn from this? it makes it seem like Button's supposedly higher downforce package indeed allowed him to dominate Vettel in sector 2, which was the sector where in qualy Vettel was more dominant over Button. All the varying weather conditions and SCs make this one difficult, but i thought i might as well put this out here for others to ponder on.

It seems to support the theory of RB's better DRS usage explains a fair percentage of their qualy advantage, and maybe also that McLaren's closed rear wing may be more efficient than RB's, and viceversa
Alejandro L.

hecti
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Joined: 30 Mar 2009, 08:34
Location: Montreal, QC

Re: McLaren MP4-26 Mercedes

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Got some cool shots of buttons car on its way to the fia legality check

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You can see all my post race pics from canada here

ajdavison2
ajdavison2
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Joined: 08 Dec 2010, 12:41

Re: McLaren MP4-26 Mercedes

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Quick question from the photos, are the vodafone logos actually red like the last shot? or are they orange like the first few?

beelsebob
beelsebob
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Joined: 23 Mar 2011, 15:49
Location: Cupertino, California

Re: McLaren MP4-26 Mercedes

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ajdavison2 wrote:Quick question from the photos, are the vodafone logos actually red like the last shot? or are they orange like the first few?
I've not seen it in person, but the impression I've always had is that they're fluorescent red. The orange is caused by a lot of light being reflected off it, because it's fluorescent.

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HampusA
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Joined: 16 Feb 2011, 14:49

Re: McLaren MP4-26 Mercedes

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Would it be possible to sort of merge the Mclaren sidepods with the STR ones?
Or is it just not realistic in terms of space?

Maybe to much weight in terms of what you gain? (due to strengthening)
The truth will come out...

ajdavison2
ajdavison2
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Joined: 08 Dec 2010, 12:41

Re: McLaren MP4-26 Mercedes

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I always thought that aswell, and on the various mclaren models I have, it's always red.

beelsebob
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Re: McLaren MP4-26 Mercedes

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HampusA wrote:Would it be possible to sort of merge the Mclaren sidepods with the STR ones?
Or is it just not realistic in terms of space?

Maybe to much weight in terms of what you gain? (due to strengthening)
One of the biggest gains of McLaren's design is that it shifts the CoG of the radiators downwards. Combining it with the STR design would negate that.

scarbs
scarbs
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Joined: 08 Oct 2003, 09:47
Location: Hertfordshire, UK

Re: McLaren MP4-26 Mercedes

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hardingfv32 wrote:Scarbs

I should have been more specific. Yes, I now see the floor cable you are talking about.

What about the metallic brown cable just below the control arms and drag link. Maybe .5-.75" round.

Brian
Yes thats the wheel tether....

hecti
hecti
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Joined: 30 Mar 2009, 08:34
Location: Montreal, QC

Re: McLaren MP4-26 Mercedes

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ajdavison2 wrote:Quick question from the photos, are the vodafone logos actually red like the last shot? or are they orange like the first few?
Reds in f1 are never reds in real life, they are always orange-ish so that tv viewres see them red

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PlatinumZealot
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Joined: 12 Jun 2008, 03:45

Re: McLaren MP4-26 Mercedes

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feynman wrote:
Pierce89 wrote:I wasn't talking about lap time. I specifically mentioned top speed. The previous quote was about how little drag the Maclaren has. So I just asked why, if the Macca has so little drag, the Merc is quicker on top end. Speaking about drag only.
And we were doing so well for a while there. Time for this again:

http://bigmsmallcbigl.com/


As to the rest of it, the amount of absolute drag or the absolute downforce on their own don't tell you enough.
The point is aerodynamic efficiency, how much downforce generated for a given amount of drag, and vice versa. It is therefore the plot of those two lines, and a calculated local maximum when fed through the simulator, that determines how any car will be configured.

You could certainly imagine a scooped-out, low-drag car body shape which then allows you to add significantly more wing than you otherwise would, such that you may in fact lose a little time on the straight, be middling in the speed traps, but gain back what you lost plus much, much, more in the corners, just because of where the radiators allowed you to shift the plots.

Saying low-drag or high-downforce without context is pointless, it is the combination and the efficiency of that combination that determines performance.
... I don't know, but from the vibe I got, I do not believe that McLaren had an "aero efficient" low downforce wing configuration available to them, trimming wings lost them more than they stood to gain, for them the numbers insisted on a barn door as the most efficient method for that car to circulate that lap.

When you then further muddy the water with tyre performance interactions from any chosen aero-load, good or bad, or from winter design decisions to bias DRS for qualification or race performance, or anything-else from the usual gaggle of omnipresent overlapping compromises that define any set-up ... then it rapidly becomes way too simplistic to say that a low drag radiator body shape must always automatically be at the top of the speed-traps ... it might, and it might not, you can't tell.
You said it better than me.
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Racing Green in 2028

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PlatinumZealot
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Joined: 12 Jun 2008, 03:45

Re: McLaren MP4-26 Mercedes

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alelanza wrote:[

No, comparing anything with anything, that sentence is wrong. Doesn't matter if you

You know what I mean, and I know what I mean. You just want to drag stuff out, being all pedantic and stuff.
OBVIOUSLY THE DRAG WILL GO UP IF YOU CRANK UP THE WINGS ON ANY CAR! you think I'm stupid?
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Racing Green in 2028

hardingfv32
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Joined: 03 Apr 2011, 19:42

Re: McLaren MP4-26 Mercedes

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In the next to bottom photo, is that a decal (vinyl) that is peeling away just after the side pod opening? The bottom of the "O" symbol.l

Brian

hardingfv32
hardingfv32
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Joined: 03 Apr 2011, 19:42

Re: McLaren MP4-26 Mercedes

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"One of the biggest gains of McLaren's design is that it shifts the CoG of the radiators downwards."

Before someone does the calculations to see exactly how much we have lower the CG with the McLaren, what level (in %) of CG change would be measurable in cornering performance?

Do we have any available perimeters to use for such a calculation, CG height, etc.?

How much might the average radiator weigh per side?

Brian

scarbs
scarbs
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Joined: 08 Oct 2003, 09:47
Location: Hertfordshire, UK

Re: McLaren MP4-26 Mercedes

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hardingfv32 wrote:"One of the biggest gains of McLaren's design is that it shifts the CoG of the radiators downwards."

Before someone does the calculations to see exactly how much we have lower the CG with the McLaren, what level (in %) of CG change would be measurable in cornering performance?

Do we have any available perimeters to use for such a calculation, CG height, etc.?

How much might the average radiator weigh per side?

Brian
Recent accurate figures from a tech director
CofG height typically 200mm above reference plane
CofG Laptime effect is around 0.01 seconds per mm