Post here all non technical related topics about Formula One. This includes race results, discussions, testing analysis etc. TV coverage and other personal questions should be in Off topic chat.
Stopping development early again isnt an option, as they will only design stuff that doesnt work, as with this car, and get to do the embarrassing copying of whatever Newey is finding, as he is the one who apparently can make the most of the current rules.
I agree with others assesment that the current rules just dont suit the old style Ferrari team. The noises MOntezemolo makes im starting to wonder how long Ferrari will stay in F1 and play cannon fodder to teams like Mclaren and Red Bull.
Jimi_Hendrix_1967 wrote:Stopping development early again isnt an option, as they will only design stuff that doesnt work, as with this car, and get to do the embarrassing copying of whatever Newey is finding, as he is the one who apparently can make the most of the current rules.
I agree with others assesment that the current rules just dont suit the old style Ferrari team. The noises MOntezemolo makes im starting to wonder how long Ferrari will stay in F1 and play cannon fodder to teams like Mclaren and Red Bull.
Yes they will surely stop development of the car if the time comes and they see they will not be where they want to be. No way they develop past August(latest) if the car isn't a winner.
Today in Gazzetta the Vice-Director says only Alonso is safe if the car does not win this year. With the aim probably being at Domenicali. I'm not so sure that happens at the end of this year though.
The bottom line is the team needs to up it's aero & CFD game. This is not an overnight task and as much as it pains me to say, if Ferrari does not do well this year, I have a slight fear Ferrari will not return to the top until the new rules in 2014.
But the team needs more aero guys & a very experienced CFD Engineer from somewhere.
The intersting part is that they have reshuffled their aero and cfd dept two or three times already in the past two years, making a lot of heads roll (Iley, De Luca, Mariella) and still they have probelems. They have recruited aro people already from the other teams (Veloudis Hodge and others).
They have a very close collaboration with Ansys fluent, having fluent peole working on site in amranello; plus they have a special agreement with microsoft (even if cfd is mostly done under linux).
They have used and use other tunnels beyond theirs, such as Dallara's and Toyota's. I thnk thay pay some visits to Windshear facility in usa also.
Montezemolo saying they have no aero school in Italy just covers for the choice Ferrari made not to build enough in house talent in aero, which is now backfiring against them.
shelly wrote:The intersting part is that they have reshuffled their aero and cfd dept two or three times already in the past two years, making a lot of heads roll (Iley, De Luca, Mariella) and still they have probelems. They have recruited aro people already from the other teams (Veloudis Hodge and others).
They have a very close collaboration with Ansys fluent, having fluent peole working on site in amranello; plus they have a special agreement with microsoft (even if cfd is mostly done under linux).
They have used and use other tunnels beyond theirs, such as Dallara's and Toyota's. I thnk thay pay some visits to Windshear facility in usa also.
Montezemolo saying they have no aero school in Italy just covers for the choice Ferrari made not to build enough in house talent in aero, which is now backfiring against them.
Good assesment but not sure if I agree with the last part.
Todt always maintained they - Byrne, Brawn and himself - would groom people (Domenicali, Costa, Baldiseri)to take over and continue the succes. Only one of them remains today, with another difficult year in prospect. Perhaps Todt did not see that homegrown educated people, trying to emulate his dream team, was not the future for Ferrari, and that you really need people who can be succesfull because they use their own unique way of working. This is exactly how Newey gets the best out of that Red Bull design team.
shelly wrote:The intersting part is that they have reshuffled their aero and cfd dept two or three times already in the past two years, making a lot of heads roll (Iley, De Luca, Mariella) and still they have probelems. They have recruited aro people already from the other teams (Veloudis Hodge and others).
They have a very close collaboration with Ansys fluent, having fluent peole working on site in amranello; plus they have a special agreement with microsoft (even if cfd is mostly done under linux).
They have used and use other tunnels beyond theirs, such as Dallara's and Toyota's. I thnk thay pay some visits to Windshear facility in usa also.
Montezemolo saying they have no aero school in Italy just covers for the choice Ferrari made not to build enough in house talent in aero, which is now backfiring against them.
Which makes the fact that the 150 Italia & the F2012 are lacking in aero an absolute travesty. I mean really, there is something wrong internally.
The F2012 for example, suffers from a lack of rear DF. The team are blaming it on the exhaust, which cannot be properly testing in the wind tunnel, so CFD is going to be huge in developing the solution before the season starts/winter testing. Yet they got it wrong/needs more development time.
Look at MaCa & RB, with RB not bringing their solution out until the final two days which means unlike Ferrari they were sure it would work. I understand the team hasn't put the emphasis on simulations like other teams have because of their track out back. But it irritates the heck out of me that such a great team is lacking that much in aero & CFD.
"You're all a bunch of idiots for spouting off all of this doom and gloom. But, since we're on the subject..."
I love you guys. I really do.
I think I've been reasonably clear that I think Ferrari is simply going through a natural transition from one era to another. (I'll admit to some impatience along the way.) It's never easy. Red Bull required three years, two engine suppliers, six testbeds and a dramatic change to the formula to become successful, and that all happened after they hired Adrian Newey. Knowledge takes time.
I've detailed how I think the regulations have hurt Ferrari badly, but if I had to point my finger at one item specific to the team, it would be Stefano Domenicali. Nothing has slowed the steady overall decline from the "dream team" era, even the departures of major figures from within the team and the addition of others, and he's really the only one left to blame. That's a very costly process of elimination, and one you'd likely have to be completely oblivious to ignore.
And I think it's terrible how Aldo Costa was made the scapegoat for the team's struggles. In my opinion, he's not responsible for a single "dud" during his tenure as Chief Designer/Technical Director.
F2005: tires sucked.
248 F1: highly competitive, near WC.
F2007: highly competitive, WC.
F2008: highly competitive, WC.
F60: unlucky; it was inevitable that one team would hit the jackpot as a result of the formula upheaval.
F10: very competitive, near WC.
150 Italia: OK, maybe "dud-ish," but by then the effects of the engine freeze, testing ban and internal infrastructure problems had reached a peak so high that it led directly to the "radical" F2012.
Costa was Rory Byrne's right-hand man, and he clearly used that experience wisely. His loss will be felt. Count on it.
The same could even be said of Chris Dyer to a degree. His blunder in 2010 at Abu Dhabi was as obvious as it was big, but should that negate his record of engineering two drivers to three Championships?
I suppose I just get the distinct impression that Ferrari is being led by someone who seems more interested in covering own his ass than doing what it takes to right the ship. In the end, maybe that's really the doing of Montezemolo wanting someone whose strings are easily pulled. I don't know.
I think Ferrari needs to be led by a full-fledged vertebrate, someone who would be rendered physically ill by making excuses and thus literally incapable of saying, ad nauseam, "We must try to understand the problem..."
Blah, blah, blah, blah.
Have you noticed how the FIA has very quietly assumed a role of relative strength since Jean Todt took the helm from Max Mosley? That is leadership.
(EDIT: It never feels like I've written that much, but I seem to be doing it an awful lot lately.)
