Lotus F1 Team 2012

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elf341
elf341
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Re: Lotus E20 Renault

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I don't know if you can say qualifying isn't the car's strong point. It has qualified really well, including multiple top 5 placings.

When looking at the race results, you would say that the car qualifies about as good as it races - although perhaps it is marginally better in the race. The Sauber, Force India and (until monaco) Ferrari are cars that clearly do not qualify well for their race pace.

Altogether, this car looks to be the best all-round package, and only isn't competing at the top of the constructors due to the crash happy Grosjean.

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PlatinumZealot
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Joined: 12 Jun 2008, 03:45

Re: Lotus E20 Renault

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elf341 wrote:I don't know if you can say qualifying isn't the car's strong point. It has qualified really well, including multiple top 5 placings.

When looking at the race results, you would say that the car qualifies about as good as it races - although perhaps it is marginally better in the race. The Sauber, Force India and (until monaco) Ferrari are cars that clearly do not qualify well for their race pace.

Altogether, this car looks to be the best all-round package, and only isn't competing at the top of the constructors due to the crash happy Grosjean.
If they had say an Alonso and a Vettel they would be winning by some wide margin right now.
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Rikhart
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Re: Lotus E20 Renault

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n smikle wrote:
elf341 wrote:I don't know if you can say qualifying isn't the car's strong point. It has qualified really well, including multiple top 5 placings.

When looking at the race results, you would say that the car qualifies about as good as it races - although perhaps it is marginally better in the race. The Sauber, Force India and (until monaco) Ferrari are cars that clearly do not qualify well for their race pace.

Altogether, this car looks to be the best all-round package, and only isn't competing at the top of the constructors due to the crash happy Grosjean.
If they had say an Alonso and a Vettel they would be winning by some wide margin right now.
Why isn´t vettel winning by wide margins then? The rb8 has nothing on the lotus... That´s a preposterous thing to say, sorry

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: Lotus E20 Renault

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The car has the goods and had the fortune.
Good stability. Long tyre life, Qualifying speed. All the goods. It is arguable the car to have.
The team too have not been perfect but they have done only one mistake I remember.
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raymondu999
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Joined: 04 Feb 2010, 07:31

Re: Lotus E20 Renault

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Rikhart wrote:
n smikle wrote:
elf341 wrote:I don't know if you can say qualifying isn't the car's strong point. It has qualified really well, including multiple top 5 placings.

When looking at the race results, you would say that the car qualifies about as good as it races - although perhaps it is marginally better in the race. The Sauber, Force India and (until monaco) Ferrari are cars that clearly do not qualify well for their race pace.

Altogether, this car looks to be the best all-round package, and only isn't competing at the top of the constructors due to the crash happy Grosjean.
If they had say an Alonso and a Vettel they would be winning by some wide margin right now.
Why isn´t vettel winning by wide margins then? The rb8 has nothing on the lotus... That´s a preposterous thing to say, sorry
What n_smikle is saying (I think) is that were it Alonso and Vettel driving the E20, as opposed to Raikkonen and Grosjean, then they would be dominating the WCC, and it would be a 2 horse race in the WDC.
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Crucial_Xtreme
Crucial_Xtreme
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Re: Lotus E20 Renault

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n smikle wrote:The car has the goods and had the fortune.
Good stability. Long tyre life, Qualifying speed. All the goods. It is arguable the car to have.
The team too have not been perfect but they have done only one mistake I remember.
I agree, but the E20 is more sensitive to temperature than some of the other competitive cars. Boullier admitted as such this weekend:

"It was worrying seeing in the race our pace getting worse, so it is very related to the weather conditions," Boullier told AUTOSPORT.


I do agree if the E20 had Fernando or Seb driving they could be leading the WDC and/or WCC. Kimi will get back to form but right now he's not there, especially with the steering issues he's having. Romain will get there eventually.

The question is why is the E20 more sensitive to ambient temperatures than others are. I believe it's because they're so easy on the tyres but it's an issue that must be fixed in order to be consistently competitive in the races and not just free practice & Quali, especially with European races coming up like Silverstone, Hoeckenheim, Hungary & Spa coming up.

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raymondu999
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Re: Lotus F1 Team 2012

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http://www1.skysports.com/formula-1/new ... s-patience
Kimi Raikkonen tried the Lotus team's patience with his performance over the Monaco Grand Prix weekend. It's the first time the new relationship has been seriously tested and where it goes from here is largely in Kimi's hands.

The Enstone team that was celebrating its 500th Grand Prix over the weekend - which includes its guises badged as Benetton, Renault and now Lotus - has always been a fabulously simple, down-to-earth operation, with a well-matched bunch of minimum-fuss racers at the core even as the management has changed around it.

The management has always just secured the funds, hired the drivers and given the race team a budget to work to - and has not got itself involved in the actual operation of the racing. So long as there are such low-key, capable, experienced, competitive personnel in the key roles as at Enstone, it works brilliantly well.

It's a very different system to those seen at, say, McLaren or Ferrari. The engineers on the race team at Enstone have always had more autonomy, with defined roles less specialised and more flexible than at other major teams. There is a natural hierarchy there that is totally respected and with everyone pulling their weight and contributing to the whole, there is a fantastic atmosphere.

The drivers that have flourished there - Michael Schumacher, Fernando Alonso, Robert Kubica - have fitted in perfectly with that ethic: racing obsessives with little interest in the peripheral bulls**t that comes with fame, who would choose to spend hours in the garage immersed in the team, talking about the car, and how to make it go faster, even after the official debriefs had finished. Why go to a party when you could hang around the engineering room or the garage?

Another ideal quality for a classic Enstone driver is a lack of emotional drama - there will be precious little arm-around-the-shoulder stuff here for any driver of that disposition. Alonso found this on the few occasions he let that Latin temperament come to the surface, hence his comments in Japan '06 of how he felt alone in the team in the wake of the Chinese Grand Prix the previous week when he found himself having to race his team-mate Giancarlo Fisichella.

Usually, Alonso's performance dominance over his team-mates kept him on an emotional even keel. But that was invariably upset whenever there was an in-team challenge. His angry screaming over the radio at Indianapolis '06 when Fisichella was running ahead of him was another such example, signed off with a sarcastic, 'I hope you enjoy Fisi's podium,' at the end.

Such stuff would be met with shrugged shouldered indifference by the guys on the team there. They loved Alonso, and his occasional outbursts were just part of him that they could easily shrug off - but were never going to indulge. They loved him because he clearly worked just as hard as them, was just as obsessively competitive as them - and because he was relentlessly on it every time he got in the car. That was true from 2003-06. The driver they found in the less competitive car of 2008-09, they were not so enamoured with, but let's not digress.

Kimi Raikkonen's low-wattage, totally unpretentious personality fits in perfectly at Enstone and he was an instant easy fit there; fantastically gifted but no histrionics. He is not as obsessive about the car as Schumacher, Alonso or Kubica, does not want to hang around at the track forever once he's been downloaded in the official debriefs.

But that's fine, the team don't mind that - they can shrug it off just as easily as they could Alonso's occasional outbursts. Where he might fall down in his relationship with the team would be if they sense he is not giving as much as they are - and his Monaco weekend was not an encouraging sign.

Kimi's driving style requires plenty of steering feedback. He's very adaptive to changes in grip, has a great instinctual feel for where it is as the track changes and the tyres degrade. But that feedback to the wheel in these days of power steering - necessary because of the high degree of camber thrust teams use to speed up the initial turn of the car - is not always an easy thing to deliver, and for much of the season so far Raikkonen has kept the team busy designing and making new components in the search for the feedback he wants. Coming into the Monaco weekend - the track with the tightest corners on the calendar and therefore the one requiring the greatest amount of steering lock - Kimi had further requested a high-ratio steering system, giving greater lock for a given degree of steering wheel input.

The Enstone guys readily agreed, even though designing and manufacturing such a system is a time-consuming business. It drained factory engineering effort away from a lot of other projects for around three weeks. As has been well-reported, Kimi made a single out-lap in Thursday morning practice at Monaco, came in, declared that the car was undriveable with this steering, almost totally devoid of feedback.

Re-fitting the conventional system is a 1.5-hour job and he was asked to consider running the session with it as it was, so that the standard system could be fitted in between sessions. He refused and took no further part in that session - the only one in which extended dry track running could have been made, as it turned out. With the afternoon session rained out, the team was sorely bereft of useful tyre data.

Producing a power steering system that combines good feedback with a high ratio is an exceptionally difficult thing to do. To give good feel, the steering must lighten noticeably as the grip reduces and weigh-up again as it increases. It must do this almost instantaneously. But that varying load has to be transferred from various torsion bars, through the medium of hydraulic fluid working on hydraulic rams. There is an inevitable inertia in the system - and the higher the steering ratio, the less finely-honed those varying degrees of resistance can be. Kimi felt that to continue the session around the streets of Monaco with the steering so dead-feeling was to invite hitting the wall.

The lack of dry running was almost certainly a contributory factor in a qualifying performance from Kimi that one senior team engineer described as 'poor'. His lack of pace in the race came largely from the early deterioration of the rear tyres in a car that is usually among the very gentlest on the rubber - and that almost certainly came from the set-up arrived at amid a lack of extended dry running on Thursday. The team was less than impressed.

Jarno Trulli used to have a hard time getting the engineers on side at this team, partly because he was so particular with his requests about the steering system he needed. When they looked across to the other side of the garage and saw that Alonso was going quickly regardless, they tended not to take Jarno's requests for a highly resource-intensive change too seriously.

Kimi's pre-occupation with his steering is reminding them all too much of their time with Trulli and this time, when they look to the other side of the garage, Romain Grosjean is going very quickly with whatever steering he's given. But they have very different driving styles, and Grosjean's - just like Alonso's before him - is not particularly sensitive to steering feedback.

The team guys feel they have done all they can to accommodate Kimi's requests - and if what results is still not to his taste, then it's really down to him to adapt himself. Kimi feels he cannot do his best work without a steering system that allows him to feel the car in the way he needs to. It's a classic racing impasse.

But it's now down to Raikkonen either to more fully explain what he needs, to spend time with the engineers, immerse himself in solving the problem - or to just live with it and buckle down to adapting himself. Shrugging his shoulders and saying, "No, that's no good," and walking away after the team had worked endless hours trying to give him what he's asked for, really did not go down well at all.
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ArchAngel
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Re: Lotus E20 Renault

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Frankly, I'm a bit surprised that claims of temperature sensitivity issues have suddenly come up for the E20 after Monaco. After all, some degree of consensus in this forum had already put the E20 as the only consistently fast car during the first 5 races of varying weather & track temperature/conditions. Among the top teams, it seemed to me that only the W03 had any real problems about this issue during the early races (barring China, of course).

Shame that Grosjean couldn't get past the opening lap. Given Raikkonen's power steering struggles and lack of FP running, an uneventful race from Romain would've probably given us a more representative performance from the E20.

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raymondu999
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Re: Lotus E20 Renault

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Perhaps when demands of mechanical rather than aerodynamic grip come to the fore, then the E20 needs the right temperature to work? I agree that it's been consistently the fastest car - and before Boullier's comments I would've said they were probably just about the only car which had the tyres figured out.
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ArchAngel
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Re: Lotus F1 Team 2012

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^ Interesting. So that's what was actually meant by the so-called "temperature sensitivity" issues the team supposedly ran into at Monaco? Tempers are beginning to rise over Raikkonen's insensitivity over the team's desire for feedback & cooperation wrt to their attempts to address his power steering problems?

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raymondu999
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Re: Lotus F1 Team 2012

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You mean the temperature affected the power steering feedback? Plausible I guess.
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godlameroso
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Re: Lotus E20 Renault

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The car has the pace to match any car, the changing temperature affects not just tire temperature but the aerodynamics as well. It's not something that would make a difference in constant mid speed corners, but it would show up under braking and accelerating out of slow corners precisely where the E20 was struggling in Monaco.
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FrukostScones
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Re: Lotus E20 Renault

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Crucial_Xtreme wrote:
n smikle wrote:The car has the goods and had the fortune.
Good stability. Long tyre life, Qualifying speed. All the goods. It is arguable the car to have.
The team too have not been perfect but they have done only one mistake I remember.
I agree, but the E20 is more sensitive to temperature than some of the other competitive cars. Boullier admitted as such this weekend:

"It was worrying seeing in the race our pace getting worse, so it is very related to the weather conditions," Boullier told AUTOSPORT.


I do agree if the E20 had Fernando or Seb driving they could be leading the WDC and/or WCC. Kimi will get back to form but right now he's not there, especially with the steering issues he's having. Romain will get there eventually.

The question is why is the E20 more sensitive to ambient temperatures than others are. I believe it's because they're so easy on the tyres but it's an issue that must be fixed in order to be consistently competitive in the races and not just free practice & Quali, especially with European races coming up like Silverstone, Hoeckenheim, Hungary & Spa coming up.
That is just a bad excuse for their "rain strategy for kimi" f*ck-up, also Raikkonen had problems with the car over the whole weekend, I think despite "the weather conditions" Grosjean would have been Top 3three in the race. He would also have been top three in qualy without his bad 2nd sector on his ultimate qualy lap.
The Team (drivers and pitwall) is just not getting it together for now, I hope they rethink their approach, stay calm, but also regognize what they have (the strongest package) and that you should use this opportunity.
Then get a 1st 2nd in Canada race.
The E20 is a bit problematic in qualifying but in the race I see no temperature problems at all. Show me the race where they were bad because of cold weather. China? Raikkonen only dropped the cliff because of bad strategy, Gros still 6th with big mistake which cost him some places. Spain race was also cold 23/24 only strategy mistake led to 3/4 instead of something better.
Finishing races is important, but racing is more important.

nacho
nacho
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Re: Lotus F1 Team 2012

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I'd wish they'd stop running so long stints with tires completely shot on every race.

madly
madly
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Joined: 11 Feb 2010, 23:20

Re: Lotus E20 Renault

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FrukostScones wrote: That is just a bad excuse for their "rain strategy for kimi" f*ck-up, also Raikkonen had problems with the car over the whole weekend, I think despite "the weather conditions" Grosjean would have been Top 3three in the race. He would also have been top three in qualy without his bad 2nd sector on his ultimate qualy lap.
The Team (drivers and pitwall) is just not getting it together for now, I hope they rethink their approach, stay calm, but also regognize what they have (the strongest package) and that you should use this opportunity.
Then get a 1st 2nd in Canada race.
The E20 is a bit problematic in qualifying but in the race I see no temperature problems at all. Show me the race where they were bad because of cold weather. China? Raikkonen only dropped the cliff because of bad strategy, Gros still 6th with big mistake which cost him some places. Spain race was also cold 23/24 only strategy mistake led to 3/4 instead of something better.
I agree. Maybe we could use words E20 likes warmer track temperatures.

Strategy is weak this year at Lotus.

I can't understand why in Spain they kept Kimi when he was 2.0-2.5s per lap slower than ALO and MAL, to have better speed at last stint about 1s per lap. It was the race to win IMHO with better strategy... And why they lied to Kimi that he's 1.5s per lap quicker when he was 1.0s quicker? Do they believed Kimi was not interested in winning race?