Vettel Red Bull Traction system?

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Just_a_fan
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Re: Vettel Red Bull Traction system?

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Neno wrote:
wesley123 wrote: Because a illegal TC device is far more logical right than something that has been the case since 2010?
Yeah i believe they have it, it has nothing with downforce. their car works better in slow speed-mid corners then in highspeed corners.
1. You do understand that, put simply, a car that makes more downforce will make more downforce across the entire speed range, don't you?
2. You do also understand that much of RedBull's aero strategy revolves around their continued use of a blown diffuser, don't you?
3. And you do understand that a blown diffuser will be most effective in slow/medium speed corners, don't you?

Vettel can get on the power earlier because doing so blows the diffuser and so generates increased rear end downforce at precisely the moment that it is most beneficial. That increased rear end downforce immediately gives better rear end grip and thus better traction. The clever part is making sure your throttle map compliments this arrangement. And there's nothing illegal in a team having a throttle map to suit their needs so long as it fits the details in the regulations.

It really doesn't need some hidden system and collusion with the FIA to make it work.

One only has to look at the amount of design effort that went in to the RB9's exhaust ramp arrangement and the detail of the rear floor plate around the rear wheel, along with the comprehensive "brake duct" flaps that they run. The secret to RB's pace is in how they have managed to get all of these details to work together so effectively.
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langwadt
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Re: Vettel Red Bull Traction system?

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Neno wrote:
wesley123 wrote: Because a illegal TC device is far more logical right than something that has been the case since 2010?
Yeah i believe they have it, it has nothing with downforce. their car works better in slow speed-mid corners then in highspeed corners.
1. You do understand that, put simply, a car that makes more downforce will make more downforce across the entire speed range, don't you?
2. You do also understand that much of RedBull's aero strategy revolves around their continued use of a blown diffuser, don't you?
3. And you do understand that a blown diffuser will be most effective in slow/medium speed corners, don't you?

Vettel can get on the power earlier because doing so blows the diffuser and so generates increased rear end downforce at precisely the moment that it is most beneficial. That increased rear end downforce immediately gives better rear end grip and thus better traction. The clever part is making sure your throttle map compliments this arrangement. And there's nothing illegal in a team having a throttle map to suit their needs so long as it fits the details in the regulations.

It really doesn't need some hidden system and collusion with the FIA to make it work.

One only has to look at the amount of design effort that went in to the RB9's exhaust ramp arrangement and the detail of the rear floor plate around the rear wheel, along with the comprehensive "brake duct" flaps that they run. The secret to RB's pace is in how they have managed to get all of these details to work together so effectively.
that, and TC doesn't magically give you more traction it just makes fewer errors than humans

autogyro
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Re: Vettel Red Bull Traction system?

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TC doesn't magically give you more traction it just makes fewer errors than humans
No magic involved just up to over a second saved in lap time.

It is difficult to work out the over all lap time saving if the Kers system does both added power and TC.
The TC use of Kers would also allow a larger exhaust gas mass flow over the diffuser and would increse DF on corner exit, so a multi win situation.

Interesting that nobody has yet explained how RB manage to run their angled undertray just scrapping the road from full of fuel to empty without using active suspension.
That issue seems to have gone to sleep lately.
Merc has caught up along with Lotus and Ferrari but no cigar as yet.
I bet the FIA is buried in English syntax problems.

wesley123
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Re: Vettel Red Bull Traction system?

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Neno wrote: In fact i dont believe they could have much bigger amount downforce then rest of f1 teams with this tight regulations.
So a downforce advantage isn't possible because of "tight" regulations, yet a device that is illegal, will show up in telemetry, parc ferme and every possible check and would have caused massive uproar already in the whole paddock would be possible? I'm sorry, but I see your logic being flawed here.

Teams have been complaining at each other over the slightest doubt of something, yet no one complained about a possible TC system. Also, the FIA hasn't done anything to Red Bull, which is weird since a TC system would show up in telemetry. Oh, and tire wear would be extremely different also. With that said, I don't see how you can consider TC as "the truth" and completely neglect the possibility of a downforce advantage, something that has been confirmed by other teams on a fairly consistent basis.

Their car operate much better in street gp races or i would say tracks where you break hard and go into 90 degrees corners (better say chikanes), tracks like Singapore,
Isn't Singapore a high-downforce track? Do I need to further explain how a car with more downforce would do better on a high-downforce circuit?
Monza. Two very different tracks, neither of them has anything similar with amount of downforce, yet Red Bull win both of them. On those tracks you can see their traction in work.
Or they have more downforce, which helps them on a max downforce track. Oh, and it will also help them in Monza as they would be able to run more df for a similar amount of drag, certainly on monza this gives a good advantage in tire wear as well as confidence to nail the chicanes right.

EDIT: Oh, and do I need to remember you that Red Bull has been running significantly lower rear wing angles than the rest of the field.
Downforce will do --- for you in low speed corner,
Unless you are having a better exhaust blowing, hit the apex slower and hit the throttle much earlier and by that will give you a huge exhaust blowing advantage early out of the corner.
They dont say for nothing that in street races,
street circuits still require max downforce, so having more max downforce on those tracks gives you an advantage.
smaller teams gets chance to get closer to top, close the gap.
no
Instead of that, Red Bull increase their advantage. :roll:
Because they have more downforce on a high downforce circuit
So i will say again. Yeah right, it must be downforce :lol:
I don't think I need to say it again why that is far more likely
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autogyro
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Re: Vettel Red Bull Traction system?

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During the Japanese Grand Prix on at least one occasion a Red Bull engineer was heard over the radio telling the driver to use Kers coming out of a slow corner, chicane or hairpin.

I will leave those far keener than me to trawl through the BBC sound track and other sources of radio traffic to confirm this my give a damn monitor is almost out of energy.

So answer me this.

What is the result of applying 80 extra bhp to the powertrain from a conventional Kers exiting from a slow corner?
Without doubt it will result in uncontrolled wheel spin.


Of course if when the driver applies Kers at corner exit the Kers M/B initialy goes into high energy harvesting and smoothly controls its transition into full motor on mode, it forms a traction control device.

This control over the M/G does not have to be in the mickey mouse software either.
It does need a very rapid charge discharge capability though which would not be possible with batteries alone.
Which is why red bull use capacitors and why their Kers is so unreliable.

Dont try to tell us that the red bulls have massive corner exit downforce.
Of course they have more than most cars but at low speed it is not very high at all, it goes up with speed.
Even with model airplanes you will see at low speed this downforce would not be sufficient to prevent traction break away when high power is applied.
Last edited by Steven on 17 Oct 2013, 12:47, edited 1 time in total.
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dren
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Re: Vettel Red Bull Traction system?

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Ever since KERS was introduced, I can recall drivers, not just Red Bull drivers, being told to use KERS out of certain corners for max overall lap performance.

Just because a Red Bull driver was told to use KERS out of a slow corner does not mean they are using it as a TC device.

Red Bull's KERS may be unreliable due to packaging constraints. They may be running the unit at the verge of failure so they can use a lighter/smaller package.

Red Bull has had KERS issues ever since they started using KERS. The rumor they are using some sort of TC are just now coming out. Perhaps the KERS issues are not TC related at all.

Of course you could call all the alternator issues they had last year TC related too, right?..maybe they were motoring the alternator...

EBD will help out low speed traction. Red Bull likely has much more diffuser downforce when comparing their rear wing AoA with others on lower DF tracks.

Either way, Red Bull could or just as likely could not be using KERS as a TC device.
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Hobbs04
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Re: Vettel Red Bull Traction system?

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I find Alonso comments post Singapore pre Korea interesting in the way he argued Vettels car was completely legal. If Ferrari are not protesting or requesting clarification are they working on similar system.

if you can't duplicate your opponents ingenuity get the advantage banned...

Just curious as the Samauri has been very vocal about racing Newey not Vettel.

autogyro
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Re: Vettel Red Bull Traction system?

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What would be the point of using Kers directly on slow corner exit?
All it will do is spin up the rear wheels.
Some of us have known the potential of using Kers for traction control from the moment the technology was announced.

Will the FIA admit that they allow Kers to be used to control rear powrtrain traction during deceleration and braking?
With the current low level of control over gearbox functions and Kers harvesting with batteries this is essential.
Brake balance just doesnt cut it now does it.

If they allow TC under braking then how do they justify enforcing no TC on acceleration?
The software wont give you a complete picture that is certain.

autogyro
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Re: Vettel Red Bull Traction system?

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Hobbs04 wrote:I find Alonso comments post Singapore pre Korea interesting in the way he argued Vettels car was completely legal. If Ferrari are not protesting or requesting clarification are they working on similar system.

if you can't duplicate your opponents ingenuity get the advantage banned...

Just curious as the Samauri has been very vocal about racing Newey not Vettel.
Of course they are all trying to emulate the red bull system.
If they complain about RB TC they will shoot themselves in the foot if the FIA bans the use of TC on deceleration.
That way no one would be able to use the Pirelli tyres at all.

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SectorOne
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Re: Vettel Red Bull Traction system?

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it would be more of a torque control then traction control even though the result would be similar.
If this system is true, Vettel and Webber can on the fly, corner by corner set the torque control lap by lap.

On the throttle extremely early, get exhaust flow benefit, KERS harvests to keep torque down, once not traction limited, deploy a burst out of the corner like a rocket.

It doesn´t sound legal though having the KERS unit keeping check of what torque the engine produces and act accordingly.
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dren
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Re: Vettel Red Bull Traction system?

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autogyro wrote:What would be the point of using Kers directly on slow corner exit?
All it will do is spin up the rear wheels.
Some of us have known the potential of using Kers for traction control from the moment the technology was announced.

Will the FIA admit that they allow Kers to be used to control rear powrtrain traction during deceleration and braking?
With the current low level of control over gearbox functions and Kers harvesting with batteries this is essential.
Brake balance just doesnt cut it now does it.

If they allow TC under braking then how do they justify enforcing no TC on acceleration?
The software wont give you a complete picture that is certain.
Surely there is a power curve for the KERS when the button is pressed relative to engine RPM and other factors.

If you gifted individuals knew of the potential for using KERS as a TC device from the moment the technology was announced, then surely every powertrain engineer in F1 knew about it. I can't see it taking those engineers until now to figure out how to make it work.

It was hinted that the Red Bull system uses suspension travel as feedback. So it would work better on bumpy circuits, like Singapore. Maybe?

Mercedes thinks it is clever engine mapping, so maybe it's clever engine mapping?
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Reca
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Re: Vettel Red Bull Traction system?

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Years ago, when KERS was new, I was told by an insider that SECU's base programming (the part "fixed" that teams have no access to) allows KERS to be used as motor only when throttle pedal is at 100% (and speed is above 100km/h) and as generator only when throttle is at 0%.
He told me that was exactly to prevent KERS being used to mimic TC/LC, in part throttle phases KERS just is out of the game, no transfer of energy can happen between MGU and drivetrain.

Remember also that other rules require that the throttle has to be WO when pedal is at 100% and that when throttle is at 100% the engine must produce the max torque it's capable of (discussed at length in the aftermath of the Germany 2012 and the Red Bull maps case).

To tell the truth I've never heard about these KERS/throttle limitations from other sources, so I can't swear these do exist, but certain things seem to confirm it, like the message we sometimes hear from pitwall telling drivers to not overlap throttle and brake (I remember once some races ago it was specifically mentioned it prevented KERS harvesting, not sure which race it was though, was before summer so possibly Germany or UK, will check recordings when I've the time), or the fact that whenever FOM graphics shows KERS energy release active, it's always when the throttle bar is full. (not that it would make sense to waste hardly recovered energy for when ICE alone can already cause wheelspin, but if it was helpful in term of traction management we would see it done).
autogyro wrote: During the Japanese Grand Prix on at least one occasion a Red Bull engineer was heard over the radio telling the driver to use Kers coming out of a slow corner, chicane or hairpin.
Should be quite obvious that "out of the corner" hasn't to be taken literally or as "right at the apex", it's just meant to give the driver a reference of the places where he needs to use it, and it implies "as soon as you can use it", which is when he can go full throttle.

Laptime wise the advantage from a given amount of energy (whatever the source is) is the highest the lowest the speed at which you can use it, for two reasons essentially; first because kinetic energy grows with square of speed (so the lower the speed, the more speed you gain for given amount of energy), second because when you are at low speed you are also more distant from next braking point, so whatever speed gain you get is used for more time, contributing more to the increment of average speed.

That's why the best strategy to use limited KERS energy, for laptime, is in short bursts out of various corners, only up to a certain speed, conveniently distributed, giving precedence to the corners with slow exit speed and followed by the longest distance to next braking (for example, in Monza KERS is best used out of first chicane but not out of second, because, while in term of speed Roggia's exit would be a good place, it's so close to Lesmo 1 braking that using energy there would be a waste, whatever speed gain you get is nullified few seconds later; better to use the remaining juice out of Lesmo 2, which has lot higher exit speed, so is not ideal in that sense, but is still preferable due to the long run to the next braking point).

Naturally that always implies that the lowest speed is the speed at which you can have enough grip to use full ICE + max KERS.

A F1 car though generates enough downforce to apply full ICE power + KERS from somewhere between 120-150 km/h (depending by aero trim, tyres conditions, lateral acceleration in that specific corner etc), and, bar very few exceptions, even the "slow" corners are already at 70-80km/h or more, meaning that it takes very little time to get to speed, hence grip, high enough for full throttle + KERS, in not many meters out of corner exit it's doable.
For example, this is a plot of two Webber's Suzuka laps (speed from engine noise and throttle captured from FOM graphics), pole position and start of race:
Image

As you can see even with high fuel load at start of the race he can go full throttle very quickly after the local minimum of speed.
Or, another example, Singapore's pole lap for Vettel, here also with indication of areas where KERS is used (which you can see is always at full throttle):
Image

So, yeah, KERS is used out of slow corners, because that's where it helps the most, but only when grip is high enough.

Naturally, if your car can benefit from more grip at corner exit, then you can go on throttle earlier AND using KERS earlier, which doubles the advantage.
In that sense Red Bull is very well placed, but it's not like they go on KERS earlier because they use KERS for traction management, it's the opposite, they have more traction so can go full throttle, and consequently on KERS, earlier.

autogyro
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Re: Vettel Red Bull Traction system?

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Nice graphs thanks.
They certainly show a nice even modulation to the throttle apply up to 150 kph what ever the cause.

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dren
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Re: Vettel Red Bull Traction system?

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Reca wrote:Naturally, if your car can benefit from more grip at corner exit, then you can go on throttle earlier AND using KERS earlier, which doubles the advantage.
In that sense Red Bull is very well placed, but it's not like they go on KERS earlier because they use KERS for traction management, it's the opposite, they have more traction so can go full throttle, and consequently on KERS, earlier.
So it's likely fancy engine mapping for better EBD, as Mercedes is hinting at.
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Reca
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Re: Vettel Red Bull Traction system?

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autogyro wrote:Nice graphs thanks.
They certainly show a nice even modulation to the throttle apply up to 150 kph what ever the cause.
You're welcome auto.

About the throttle traces, be careful not reading too much in it; as I said that is captured from the FOM graphics, I rapidly made a little program that reads the video frame by frame and picks the color of various points on the throttle bar; in general it works quite well, but it's possible that every now and then the tolerance in color reading is a bit wrong and some values are misinterpreted.
On top of that then it remains to be seen also how accurate the FOM graphics is obviously.
So take it as a general idea, for that it's good enough, but for precise evaluation of every single point, I wouldn't put money on it.

BTW, luckily (as I wasn't in the mood of going thru various races...) with a rapid google search I discovered that at F1fanatic there are the transcripts of radio messages aired during races and thanks to that took me very little time to find the message I mentioned in the previous post about avoiding overlap of throttle and brake, it happened during UK gp, and was directed to Hamilton on lap 27:
Throttle/brake overlap is preventing KERS charging so just minimise that where you can.
http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2013/07/03/2 ... ranscript/
dren wrote:
Reca wrote:Naturally, if your car can benefit from more grip at corner exit, then you can go on throttle earlier AND using KERS earlier, which doubles the advantage.
In that sense Red Bull is very well placed, but it's not like they go on KERS earlier because they use KERS for traction management, it's the opposite, they have more traction so can go full throttle, and consequently on KERS, earlier.
So it's likely fancy engine mapping for better EBD, as Mercedes is hinting at.
That would be my opinion too, as based on what I was told, SECU should prevent clever usage of KERS for that.
I'd like to get that confirmed by some other source though, as the info is some years old by now, and never heard it from others (except for the mention of the 100km/h limit every now and then).