Is Formula 1 becoming too slow?

[Owen.C93]

It was news last year when McLaren said Lewis had just started hitting 6g under braking at AbuDhabi. Anyway I think with the harder tyres Pirelli need for next season we may see some slower laptimes from that as well. There's already a 1s gap between 2 compounds and it sounds like they're making big changes for next year.

[foxmulder_ms]

Formula 1 should be a showcase of cutting edge technology. I am hard pressed to show any cutting edge technology demonstration in current F1. That's why I really support the engine changes in 2014. In my opinion piston engines have "old technology" feeling. I think F1 should try to go towards more futuristic fields. From this perspective, hybrid engines or all electric cars can be the future (i.e. Formula E). Our world is shaped by computer tech. Therefore electronic gizmos (i.e. traction control like techs) should be considered, too. This may be interesting for tech companies like Google etc. Engine development should be relaxed much more. That is the way to lure large companies. F1 should have BMW, Toyota, WV in it. So, I really do not have sympathy to small teams, I prefer to see large tech/car companies battling it out.

[flmkane]

It would be sad if some of the old lap records were not broken.
I don't think having 10 year old lap records is advancement, no matter what the guise.

Why do they need to be broken? And of course it's advancement – it's keeping the same despite tighter rules – in order to do that you have to get more advanced.

It's a regression, because it just shows what we all know- F1 cars are no longer the cutting edge of technology.

[beelsebob]

It would be sad if some of the old lap records were not broken.
I don't think having 10 year old lap records is advancement, no matter what the guise.

Why do they need to be broken? And of course it's advancement – it's keeping the same despite tighter rules – in order to do that you have to get more advanced.

It's a regression, because it just shows what we all know- F1 cars are no longer the cutting edge of technology.

I see, so because an iPhone is slower than a desktop PC, it's not cutting edge, and similarly, because a desktop PC is slower than a supercomputer, it too is not cutting edge?

Alternatively, all 3 are cutting edge, but have different design constraints.

[flmkane]

[quote="beelsebob
It's a regression, because it just shows what we all know- F1 cars are no longer the cutting edge of technology.[/quote]
I see, so because an iPhone is slower than a desktop PC, it's not cutting edge, and similarly, because a desktop PC is slower than a supercomputer, it too is not cutting edge?

Alternatively, all 3 are cutting edge, but have different design constraints.[/quote]


We are talking about one specific category of racecars. It would be like comparing an Iphone 5s to an iphone 3G.

F1 is not cutting edge, because some of the latest an most relevant technologies are banned. VVT, camless engine timing, active suspension (which I dont consider a driver aid), real racing tyres, many restrictions regarding the materials the cars are made from etc. Hell, they cant even place their exhausts freely anymore.

Due to the elimination of these and many other technologies from F1, it cannot be considered cutting edge anymore. It's stuck ten years back. Even with the new engines, it will be a very restricted formula.

[MOWOG]

Due to the elimination of these and many other technologies from F1, it cannot be considered cutting edge anymore. It's stuck ten years back. Even with the new engines, it will be a very restricted formula.

You said what I said. Only gooder! Formula One being the "pinnacle of technology" is a load of bollocks, unless you are talking about aerodynamics. In THAT regard, the sport is, in fact, cutting edge. And when strakes, turning vanes, vortex control, end plates and side pod design become relevant to road cars, then Formula One will once again be seen as a major contributor to the advancement of the automobile.

Until then, it will remain what I said it is: an entertainment delivery system.

[Richard]

Formula One will once again be seen as a major contributor to the advancement of the automobile.

Its been a long time since that was the case. There hasn't been any relevance to road cars for say 30 or 40 years?

I view F1 as an exotic offshoot, an abstract thought experiment made physical.

[Jersey Tom]

Due to the elimination of these and many other technologies from F1, it cannot be considered cutting edge anymore. It's stuck ten years back. Even with the new engines, it will be a very restricted formula.

You said what I said. Only gooder! Formula One being the "pinnacle of technology" is a load of bollocks, unless you are talking about aerodynamics. In THAT regard, the sport is, in fact, cutting edge. And when strakes, turning vanes, vortex control, end plates and side pod design become relevant to road cars, then Formula One will once again be seen as a major contributor to the advancement of the automobile.

Until then, it will remain what I said it is: an entertainment delivery system.

I can't think of any time it was truly "cutting edge" from a technology / development standpoint. F1 has been, and always will be, an entertainment delivery system. It's sport. Might as well be asking ourselves how football advances mankind - it doesn't, purely there for entertainment.

I'd actually also question whether F1 is cutting edge in the field of aerodynamics. Not to take anything away from the talent level in the sport and its highly sculpted bodies... but compared to the aerospace and defense industries, with moving and active control surfaces? Compared to space planes like SpaceShipOne? Compared to supersonic flight?

Just putting it in perspective. But again, fundamentally F1 is entertainment - nothing more. Is it becoming "too slow" ? No. Whether it's a two seconds faster or slower a lap around track X I don't see as having any consequence on a good show.

[Ogami musashi]

The aerodynamics in F1 are state of the art in the vortex lift systems. You can't compare planes, spaceships and cars they work in totally different enveloppes.

As for Formula One, the term "formula" is historically a set of technical strict technical regulations based on engine and weight limits and it differenciated itself from endurance racing in the 1920's just by being a pure race bred machines type while endurance racing was more towards road relevance.

So i don't think formula one has ever been a "road relevant" championship.

Now first i think everybody need to hold their horses. Just because one guy (even if he's knowledgeable) said 10 secs doesn't mean it will be anywhere near that and actually other actual F1 technical figures hinted that the cars wouldn't be that slower at the start and would rapidly be as fast if not faster.

So we need to wait.

However IMHO, the faster you go, the harder it is...that's why having cars that corner brake and accelerate fast is very important to me.

[xpensive]

Formula One will once again be seen as a major contributor to the advancement of the automobile.

Its been a long time since that was the case. There hasn't been any relevance to road cars for say 30 or 40 years?

I view F1 as an exotic offshoot, an abstract thought experiment made physical.

Xcuse me, I'm a bit confused here, but was that a correction made as a moderator or an opinion from just another member?

On topic, I think 750 hp is quite right actually, but the tracks need to be speeded up.

[Blanchimont]

Some other opinions:

2 to 3 seconds slower

Faster in the second half of the 2014 season

Edit:
Another point to consider is the Mercedes video ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ebpkJXJ7CFo ) that shows a simulated lap around Monza. The lap time in this video is ~1:25min, the 2013 pole time was 1:23,755min. Not bad, if the video and the sound wasn't manipulated.

[MOWOG]

Perhaps I have stated my case badly. It's not whether I think Formula One is relevant to road cars, it is whether the SPORT thinks it is relevant to road going cars. Certainly the engine manufacturers have to think what they are doing has some knock on benefit to the road cars they produce, no? And the hype that the sport puts out about itself makes me think the PTB believe they are oh so relevant.

In any event, the prism through which I view all motor racing is Can Am. THAT was a series where you were allowed to go just as fast as you could possibly go on tracks that were not constrained by chicanes and other artificial means of slowing the cars down. The racing was fast and furious from flag to flag and few were the fans who drifted off for a little nap in the course of a Can Am race.

You must pardon an older gent like me who still wishes that modern F1 were as much pulse pounding fun as it was in the era of this video:



I fear we shall never see such racing again in my lifetime and that makes me sad.

Compared to the racing I remember, today's "show" is a pale comparison and that is really what I wanted to say. But again, ultimate speed around a racing circuit is less important to the viewers than competition among drivers on each lap.

Formula One is what it is. We have no option but to keep calm and carry on, I suppose!

[Manoah2u]

Perhaps I have stated my case badly. It's not whether I think Formula One is relevant to road cars, it is whether the SPORT thinks it is relevant to road going cars. Certainly the engine manufacturers have to think what they are doing has some knock on benefit to the road cars they produce, no? And the hype that the sport puts out about itself makes me think the PTB believe they are oh so relevant.

In any event, the prism through which I view all motor racing is Can Am. THAT was a series where you were allowed to go just as fast as you could possibly go on tracks that were not constrained by chicanes and other artificial means of slowing the cars down. The racing was fast and furious from flag to flag and few were the fans who drifted off for a little nap in the course of a Can Am race.

You must pardon an older gent like me who still wishes that modern F1 were as much pulse pounding fun as it was in the era of this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jcMv2en9HYU

I fear we shall never see such racing again in my lifetime and that makes me sad.

Compared to the racing I remember, today's "show" is a pale comparison and that is really what I wanted to say. But again, ultimate speed around a racing circuit is less important to the viewers than competition among drivers on each lap.

Formula One is what it is. We have no option but to keep calm and carry on, I suppose!

err, you act as if there are no fights going on anymore on track

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sbljviqHYpI

that's just one, there were multiple great battles this year, f.e. between perez and button.
hamilton vs rosberg. alonso vs hamilton. Raikkonen battling.

They're harder to find on youtube unfortunately due to those stupid game video battles that
clog up youtube completely. very annoying.

and since the driver definately is going to be more important next year, it'll be even more exciting.

As if F1 in the 'old days' never was boring.

[Anon123]

Some other opinions:

2 to 3 seconds slower

Faster in the second half of the 2014 season

Edit:
Another point to consider is the Mercedes video ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ebpkJXJ7CFo ) that shows a simulated lap around Monza. The lap time in this video is ~1:25min, the 2013 pole time was 1:23,755min. Not bad, if the video and the sound wasn't manipulated.

It's Monza though which is naturally a low DF circuit, the times should be closer there.

[Andres125sx]

6g turns are simply too much. Aircraft pilots can take around 10-12g, but that´s completely different because they only suffer vertical forces,

Exactly. It´s not anywhere near the dangers of getting a blackout of redout so increasing the G should be no problems considering the only banking we have in F1 is negligible.

I´m afraid to tell you F1 drivers disagree with you, they are who said they´re on the limit, not me

Maybe you´re not considering there are different limits. Let me explain it with an example, sound over 110-120dB (don´t remind the exact number, but it´s around here) are harmful for the hearing. And continous sounds over 85dB are harmful for the hearing.

Both are limits. With G forces it´s the same, humans can´t take more than 10-12 G´s, not even with G suites, and not even for an instant. And humans can´t take more than 6 G´s as a continuous effort.

I was going to search the exact quote, but with Hollus quote about the CART race cancelled because of this I think it´s not necessary.

And no, the banking has nothing to see with it, it allow the cars going faster and take more G´s, but if the limit is the drivers are getting disoriented then the banking doesn´t matter at all, the limit is the driver, not the car

but F1 drivers have to hold their head (and helmet) sideways, and at 6g turns that´s a lot of kg to hold with your neck, specially for 2 continuous hours

They lean on the headrest even now so any higher effect would only cause a bit earlier leaning during the race.
Although i think today not all drivers relax the neck during the race. Vettel i´ve seen do it.

They relax on some corners.... to relax, but they have to hold their head on every single corner. You´re talking about some scence we´ve seen where drivers put his hand between the helmet and the cockpit to support the helmet and relax the neck... That actually is the proof they´re on the limit. They couldn´t hold their head/helmet for a whole race and needed to relax from time to time

I think I read some years ago a driver faint may be possible due to the fatigue and that obviously can´t be a possibility, so from that point cars simply can´t be faster... at least while a driver is inside

As long as the driver has water i can´t see that happening.

I´m happy you don´t see it, but even so it´s a posibility, they´re on the limit and that´s the reason we won´t see any further improvement on F1 cars or lap times

We have to choose, we can see drivers competing (F1), or we can see the fastest cars we humans can build (a competition with remoted controlled cars), but both togheter are not possible, technology can go much further than humans.

Like it or not, we are the weak part, we are the part limiting the development, and this can´t be improved, so we´ve reached F1 limits and we will never see huge improvements again... while a driver is inside the car