VW cheat emissions test with "defeat device"

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emaren
emaren
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Re: Massive betray by VW, facing fines up to $18 billion!

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Cold Fussion wrote:
Is it really cheating? It passes the EPA emissions tests, it's really a failure of the EPA to do representative testing.
Oh yes, the old 'Its only cheating if you get caught' argument. That tends to not work too well in real life.

From what I understand, the software recognised that the car was being tested and it made changes to the pollution control systems to ensure that it was inside the mandated range. The only time it actually runs in that range is when the software recognises that the test is being performed.
“Put simply, these cars contained software that turns off emissions controls when driving normally and turns them on when the car is undergoing an emissions test,” Cynthia Giles, an EPA enforcement officer said. “We intend to hold Volkswagen responsible.
I worked on engine management software many years ago. To me it seems logical that the software could this. The big reason though is 'why'.

It is generally recognised that most diesel engines produce a large amount of particulates, these need to be scrubbed by emission control systems before the exhaust gasses are permitted to leave the car. It is not that simple, but bear with me.

There are numerous strategies to accomplish this. Some form of NOx reduction is needed within the emissions control systems. Mercedes use a system called Blutec. Initially VW used the same technology, licensed from Daimler. But in 2007, they broke away from using it as they did not want to be associated with using a competitors tech.

Blutec (or AdBlue) is a 'selective catalytic reduction' system that uses urea (or ammonia) injection into the catalyst to reduce the NOx content of the exhaust gasses. This is not a cheap system, it needs a urea storage (and refill /monitoring) system, a very expensive catalyst and plenty of software and hardware integrated into the car.

The other option, which VW rolled out in 2008 is called a NOx adsorber. It is a version of a catalytic convertor that is capable of trapping NOx and dealing with high O2 content in the exhaust gasses. This is combined with heavy exhaust gas recirculation and in theory at least it should be pretty good. It is very tricky to get right, but it is possible.

Except. You need to run extremely lean, the EGR system is prone to choking and the catalyst is very, very temperature sensitive. All of this combined means that while it will work sometimes, long term operation is perhaps suspect.

Of the two technologies, urea injection into the catalyst is more reliable, but there is a lot of hardware there and you need to ensure that the vehicle has urea in the tank at all times. The tank takes up space, there is a licensing cost with Bluetec/AdBlue and the software changes need to accommodate this.

As best I can see, VW will have to tread very carefully.

The cars that are effected may be retrofitted with urea tanks and catalyst injection systems and somehow re-certified.

Maybe software will bring them into compliance, but almost certainly at the expense of fuel economy or longterm viability with the EGR issues that already exist.

Or they simply crush the lot and replace them with nice, shiny new ones......

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FW17
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Re: Massive betray by VW, facing fines up to $18 billion!

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Diesel exhaust fluid (DEF), commonly referred to as AdBlue in Europe, Australia, and New Zealand, and standardised as ISO 2224is an aqueous urea solution made with 32.5% high-purity urea (AUS 32) and 67.5% deionized water. DEF is used as a consumable in selective catalytic reduction (SCR) in order to lower NOx concentration in the diesel exhaust emissions from diesel engines.

DEF is used in Daimler AG's BlueTec system that has been built into several diesel trucks and cars. The German Association of the Automotive Industry (VDA) controls the "AdBlue" trademark and uses it to ensure quality standards are maintained in accordance with DIN 70070 and ISO 22241 specifications.

DEF is stored in a tank on board the vehicle, and injected into the exhaust stream by a metering system. The injection rate depends on the specific after-treatment system, but is typically 2-6% of diesel consumption volume. This low dosing rate ensures long fluid refill intervals and minimises the tank's size (and subsequent obtrusion into vehicle packaging space). An electronic control unit adjusts the addition of fluid in accordance with such parameters as engine operating temperature and speed.

Diesel exhaust fluid is offered to consumers through a variety of quantities by manufacturers ranging from containers of it for single or repeated small usage, up to bulk carriers for consumers that require a large amount of DEF. It is recommended that DEF be stored in a cool, dry, and well-ventilated area that is out of direct sunlight. As of 2013, a number of truck stops are beginning to add DEF pumps, in which diesel exhaust fluid is administered at pumps similarly to diesel, and often located adjacent to fuel pumps such that the vehicle operator can fill up on both without moving the truck.
VW and Audi lower end models such as A3, Golf, Jedda etc were apparently sold without the need for this exhaust treatment system to make it cheaper to buy and run.

Fulcrum
Fulcrum
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Joined: 25 Aug 2014, 18:05

Re: Massive betray by VW, facing fines up to $18 billion!

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Cheating on benchmark tests is something we should all be familiar with by now.

http://www.cnet.com/news/almost-all-and ... port-says/

However, that does not make it acceptable behaviour and the markets have catalyzed the outrage. 25% of your market cap is a fairly significant reaction.

At least the change to their slogan won't require much work:

Das Auto -> Dass Auto

MadMatt
MadMatt
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Joined: 08 Jan 2011, 16:04

Re: Massive betray by VW, facing fines up to $18 billion!

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11 millions of vehicles across the world have that secret software, and as I thought, Skoda, Seat, and Porsche are involved as well. :)

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Tim.Wright
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Re: Massive betray by VW, facing fines up to $18 billion!

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MadMatt wrote:...as I thought, Skoda, Seat, and Porsche are involved as well.
Is that true? Do you have any source for that? Everything I've read only mentions VW and Audi for now.
Not the engineer at Force India

MadMatt
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Re: Massive betray by VW, facing fines up to $18 billion!

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Tim.Wright wrote:
MadMatt wrote:...as I thought, Skoda, Seat, and Porsche are involved as well.
Is that true? Do you have any source for that? Everything I've read only mentions VW and Audi for now.
Check official press release here from VW: https://www.volkswagen-media-services.c ... h=dm79RBjK

"Further internal investigations conducted to date have established that the relevant engine management software is also installed in other Volkswagen Group vehicles with diesel engines."

Other sources in Swiss national newspapers mention Skoda, Seat and Porsche but these articles won't be in English.

emaren
emaren
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Re: Massive betray by VW, facing fines up to $18 billion!

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MadMatt wrote:11 millions of vehicles across the world have that secret software, and as I thought, Skoda, Seat, and Porsche are involved as well. :)
edit: I cannot even figure out what the AE189 engine is......

MadMatt
MadMatt
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Re: Massive betray by VW, facing fines up to $18 billion!

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emaren wrote:
MadMatt wrote:11 millions of vehicles across the world have that secret software, and as I thought, Skoda, Seat, and Porsche are involved as well. :)
edit: I cannot even figure out what the AE189 engine is......
These are codes used internally by VW, like BMW uses codes (eg. B37) and every manufacturer.

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Tim.Wright
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Joined: 13 Feb 2009, 06:29

Re: Massive betray by VW, facing fines up to $18 billion!

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MadMatt wrote:
Tim.Wright wrote:
MadMatt wrote:...as I thought, Skoda, Seat, and Porsche are involved as well.
Is that true? Do you have any source for that? Everything I've read only mentions VW and Audi for now.
Check official press release here from VW: https://www.volkswagen-media-services.c ... h=dm79RBjK

"Further internal investigations conducted to date have established that the relevant engine management software is also installed in other Volkswagen Group vehicles with diesel engines."

Other sources in Swiss national newspapers mention Skoda, Seat and Porsche but these articles won't be in English.
That's far from confirming Porsche and Seat as being involved.

The original notice of violation only mentions VW and Audi. So someone is taking liberties here. You need to be careful who you quote in these situation to avoid spreading bullshìt...

Here is the notice of violation from the EPA:
http://www3.epa.gov/otaq/cert/documents ... -18-15.pdf
Not the engineer at Force India

emaren
emaren
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Joined: 29 Sep 2014, 11:36

Re: Massive betray by VW, facing fines up to $18 billion!

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MadMatt wrote:
emaren wrote:
MadMatt wrote:11 millions of vehicles across the world have that secret software, and as I thought, Skoda, Seat, and Porsche are involved as well. :)
edit: I cannot even figure out what the EA189 engine is......
These are codes used internally by VW, like BMW uses codes (eg. B37) and every manufacturer.
Yes, I get that :D I was trying to figure out exactly which engine it is and I failed, mostly because the engines are often four letters, e.g. CAYC (1.6 TDI) or CFHC (2.0 TDI), both of which are part of the EA189 family.

Which probably explains the 11M numbers as there are a multitude of versions from 1.6ltr (77hp) to 2.0ltr 168hp and they are found in pretty much everything from a Skoda Yeti to an Audi A4 and SEAT Leon's.

MadMatt
MadMatt
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Re: Massive betray by VW, facing fines up to $18 billion!

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Tim.Wright wrote:That's far from confirming Porsche and Seat as being involved.

The original notice of violation only mentions VW and Audi. So someone is taking liberties here. You need to be careful who you quote in these situation to avoid spreading bullshìt...

Here is the notice of violation from the EPA:
http://www3.epa.gov/otaq/cert/documents ... -18-15.pdf
Few of the sources I have:

http://www.letemps.ch/Page/Uuid/1debad8 ... de_trucage

http://www.lematin.ch/economie/volkswag ... y/10195137

http://www.huffingtonpost.fr/2015/09/22 ... 75208.html

http://www.rtl.fr/actu/economie/volkswa ... 7779810214

http://www.rts.ch/info/monde/7105457-11 ... ucage.html

These are major newspaper/medias from Switzerland and France. Hardly me spreading bullshit unless medias are spreading bullshit themselves (which wouldn't be new), but then what.

MadMatt
MadMatt
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Re: Massive betray by VW, facing fines up to $18 billion!

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The telegraph even writes models:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/ ... ected.html

According to this source, VWs and Audis. No mention of Skoda, Seat, or Porsche (yet).

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Phil
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Joined: 25 Sep 2012, 16:22

Re: Massive betray by VW, facing fines up to $18 billion!

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I think the concern is that one story might be quoting another. It only takes one "unnamed source" for everyone to jump on the same (exaggerated) story. Besides, how many diesel (in that class) does Porsche produce anyway? (I really have no idea)

Anyway, this is very serious indeed. This will have huge and far reaching consequences...
Not for nothing, Rosberg's Championship is the only thing that lends credibility to Hamilton's recent success. Otherwise, he'd just be the guy who's had the best car. — bhall II
#Team44 supporter

MadMatt
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Re: Massive betray by VW, facing fines up to $18 billion!

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Phil wrote:I think the concern is that one story might be quoting another. It only takes one "unnamed source" for everyone to jump on the same (exaggerated) story. Besides, how many diesel (in that class) does Porsche produce anyway? (I really have no idea)

Anyway, this is very serious indeed. This will have huge and far reaching consequences...
I totally agree with you, that's why I posted another source where they don't mention Skoda for example. Wait and see! :)

emaren
emaren
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Joined: 29 Sep 2014, 11:36

Re: Massive betray by VW, facing fines up to $18 billion!

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MadMatt wrote:
Phil wrote:I think the concern is that one story might be quoting another. It only takes one "unnamed source" for everyone to jump on the same (exaggerated) story. Besides, how many diesel (in that class) does Porsche produce anyway? (I really have no idea)

Anyway, this is very serious indeed. This will have huge and far reaching consequences...
I totally agree with you, that's why I posted another source where they don't mention Skoda for example. Wait and see! :)
The VW statement https://www.volkswagen-media-services.c ... h=dm79RBjK

Specifically calls out Eleven Million vehicles with the EA198 series of engines.

A quick google reveals that this is used in numerous guises across all of the VW group - Audi, Skoda, VW, Seat......

Given that 'only' half a million are in the US, this must relate to another 10.5MM elsewhere in the world.