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While the technical regulations regarding the power units are going into their 4th stable year, Mercedes' engine Chief, Andy Cowell, has noted there are still gains to be made. Cowell underlined that the key to these continued improvements are Mercedes' proven testing facility.
If the ICE is producing 740hp then its efficiency will be ~44.5% according to the fuel energy values given by Andy Cowell some time ago (1,240kW @ 100kg/hr fuel flow rate, ~45MJ/kg).ringo wrote:What i find weird about this power unit is that they have a thermal efficiency less than 40% but yet it is producing more than 740hp.
I have conceded early that they are stronger than i thought, however i would imaging efficiencies over 40%. So seeing that its less than 40, then we can see that their power levels are heavily dependent on their fuel.
I think they have a right to speak about overall thermal efficiency of the power unit. But they need to state it as break thermal efficiency since it goes beyond combustion.
But you can calculate thermal efficiency of the ICE combined with MGU-H because that's really the power extracted from fuel by the PU.wuzak wrote:If the ICE is producing 740hp then its efficiency will be ~44.5% according to the fuel energy values given by Andy Cowell some time ago (1,240kW @ 100kg/hr fuel flow rate, ~45MJ/kg).ringo wrote:What i find weird about this power unit is that they have a thermal efficiency less than 40% but yet it is producing more than 740hp.
I have conceded early that they are stronger than i thought, however i would imaging efficiencies over 40%. So seeing that its less than 40, then we can see that their power levels are heavily dependent on their fuel.
I think they have a right to speak about overall thermal efficiency of the power unit. But they need to state it as break thermal efficiency since it goes beyond combustion.
You cannot calculate the thermal efficiency of the power unit using energy from an external source (the ES).
Yes, that is when it is operating in compound mode.rgava wrote:But you can calculate thermal efficiency of the ICE combined with MGU-H because that's really the power extracted from fuel by the PU.wuzak wrote:If the ICE is producing 740hp then its efficiency will be ~44.5% according to the fuel energy values given by Andy Cowell some time ago (1,240kW @ 100kg/hr fuel flow rate, ~45MJ/kg).ringo wrote:What i find weird about this power unit is that they have a thermal efficiency less than 40% but yet it is producing more than 740hp.
I have conceded early that they are stronger than i thought, however i would imaging efficiencies over 40%. So seeing that its less than 40, then we can see that their power levels are heavily dependent on their fuel.
I think they have a right to speak about overall thermal efficiency of the power unit. But they need to state it as break thermal efficiency since it goes beyond combustion.
You cannot calculate the thermal efficiency of the power unit using energy from an external source (the ES).
ICE Plus + MUGH they mean. THe turbo compounding is still counted towards Internal combustion hence the word "Overall"flat out wrote:And additionally to that it says that the ICE can achieve up to 50 percent overall efficiency.
So if the V6 turbo ICE efficeny is 50% the V8 ICE efficiency would need to be 38.46%We have achieved an efficiency gain of over 30% - in other words, we are producing over 30% more power for every unit of fuel consumed compared with last year's V8 engine.
The unit can store 10 times more energy than the current KERS units and harvest 5 times more energy at the rear axle. Current thermal efficiency is 30%, and Mercedes has said that it is aiming for a thermal efficiency of 40% with its new turbo engine - a figure markedly more efficient than even the best road-car diesel engines, which are in the region of 35%. As the driver on average demands full power for 50 seconds per lap, this means that the hybrid aspect will be a very significant contributor to lap time.
He is saying the V6T ICE is as powerful as the V8s - so somewhere in the region of 720-750hp, you would think.Andy Cowell wrote:If [you] just look at the internal combustion engine, then today’s V6 1.6 litre turbo-charged engine is approximately the same power as the V8 engine was.
Both of those ran a hybrid system and if you add the KERS system onto the V8 and the ERS system onto the V6, and look at their maximum power values, then today’s V6 with ERS is 10 per cent more powerful than we had with the V8 and the KERS system.
The ERS system is available for the majority of the lap; the KERS system was only available for 6.7 seconds of the lap, so in terms of laptime, impact of the V6 and ERS, is significantly greater than we had with the V8 and KERS system.
The fuel flow rate gives us an efficiency for the V10 of between 29% and 30.6%, assuming the power of 900hp and 950, respectively, and fuel energy content of 43MJ/kg.Andy Cowell wrote:If you look at the total power that we’ve got today and compare it with the V10, and the last few races of the V10 era, we have more power than we had at the end of the V10 era.
If you look at the fuel flow rate of the V10 era, it was over 190kgs an hour, 194kgs an hour, and today we’re at 100kgs an hour. [It’s] the same power, [with] about half the fuel flow rate, which is a phenomenal change in terms of efficiency of the power unit, as we now call it.
If he's trying to make the PU look impressive than simply giving the power figure wouldn't be that impressive. ~900 hp from a turbo engine that weighs 140kg is really nothing special, and is only special because of how efficient it is. So really the impressive part is the efficiency part so it's far better him politically to do all he can to emphasis that part of the equation.ringo wrote:Why doesnt Andy Cowell give us a horsepower figure and be done with it?
I don't think that is correctJoseki wrote:I don't know how and why but I was told by someone reliable that is possible to have a boost from the hybrid system more powerful than just the 120 kW of the MGU-K, how can this be possible?
Joseki wrote:I don't know how and why but I was told by someone reliable that is possible to have a boost from the hybrid system more powerful than just the 120 kW of the MGU-K, how can this be possible?
Perhaps technically it is feasible with the current systems, but the regulations prevent anyone from using that potential.Pierce89 wrote:I don't think that is correct
Maybe that person was referring to what we call qualifying mode. I.e. The ERS system is giving a larger increase in hp by the simple virtue of holding the wastegate at least partially open and reducing backpressure. This will then reduce pumping losses in the engine and take a load off of the crank. Ergo the extra power is actually from the ERS system via the crank. The MGU-K never passes the stipulated 120 kW.Pierce89 wrote:I don't think that is correctJoseki wrote:I don't know how and why but I was told by someone reliable that is possible to have a boost from the hybrid system more powerful than just the 120 kW of the MGU-K, how can this be possible?