2016 Williams Martini Racing F1 Team - Mercedes

[LookBackTime]

"And do Williams Advanced Engineering or Williams Hybrid Power not have Dyno's of their own?"

From my knowledge they do not have their own dyno's.
Williams had to validate their gearboxes on Mercedes dyno's 2 years ago.

[FoxHound]

"And do Williams Advanced Engineering or Williams Hybrid Power not have Dyno's of their own?"

From my knowledge they do not have their own dyno's.
Williams had to validate their gearboxes on Mercedes dyno's 2 years ago.

Validation could just mean that it needs to tie up to Mercedes numbers.

[Sevach]

Symonds took a little veiled shot today at the Mercedes equality.

"I still want to believe that we can (beat Mercedes)," said Symonds.

"If they are running their engines a bit harder than us, which of course they are perfectly entitled to do, and that’s worth a 10th of a second then we’ve got to make a car that is a 10th of a second quicker than theirs to get on equal terms. Well, why not?"

Source
http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-motor- ... KKCN0UW23B

[FoxHound]

Symonds took a little veiled shot today at the Mercedes equality.

"I still want to believe that we can (beat Mercedes)," said Symonds.

"If they are running their engines a bit harder than us, which of course they are perfectly entitled to do, and that’s worth a 10th of a second then we’ve got to make a car that is a 10th of a second quicker than theirs to get on equal terms. Well, why not?"

Source
http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-motor- ... KKCN0UW23B

Far better off with Renault or Honda, eh Sevach?

In the greater narrative it's interesting what Symonds says, and the context you quote it.

I had a look at the time margins between Mercedes and Williams, and the difference between the best qualified Williams, and best qualified Mercedes through 2015 was around 1.150 seconds.
In amongst this little search, I found some interesting points you should be made aware of.

Engine tracks like Monza, Spa, Silverstone,Montreal and Suzuka, the gap shrinks to 0.800 seconds.

Chassis and Aero tracks like Monaco, Hungary, Catalunya, Sochi, Singapore and Abu Dhabi that gap increases to around 1.150 seconds. And this is also skewed by Mercedes screwing up Singapore set ups, where the difference was only 0.4 seconds.
If you discount this anomaly, the gap increases to 1.4 seconds.

Then you can look at conditions whereby the driver, chassis and aero can make the difference, and the engine is largely neutered. Rain conditions.
2 wet qualifying sessions garner a 2.8 seconds difference.

I could reel off the amount of times Williams bagged the top speed for each weekend they competed in too, but that would be disingenuous.
Williams struggle to get efficient downforce, and this has consequences. When they do bolt on higher AoA and monkey seats, the car loses ground relatively.
So while Symonds, possibly yourself, may be worried about a tenth(or is it more? ) of a second difference, It is pretty clear that the main difference between Mercedes-AMG and Williams is not the engine, but the chassis and aero.

Massa seems to be on point, knowing exactly what is needed to improve their team. And it certainly isn't a hypothetical 0.1 seconds from an "unequal" PU...

The most important think we need to improve is the aerodynamics of the car. We need to give the car more downforce, so we need to improve this area compared with the teams we are fighting with.
I would say the engine we are using is a similar engine to [the works] Mercedes, which is the best engine in F1, but Ferrari caught up really a lot. I don't know how much better is the Mercedes compared to Ferrari, but Ferrari is very, very close, that's why they improved massively as well.
But I would say maybe where we need to improve more is on the aerodynamics, which is what we're working on, maybe already from the middle of last year until now. I hope we can see some improvements in this area."

[Sevach]

What great overreaction. not even for a second i suggested that with the engine that goes into Lewis car Bottas would be world champion, i don't think anyone posting in this thread did (i hope they didn't).
Yes, Mercedes in fact produced a fantastic car and their wins are very much deserved, nothing else should be said about that.

The deficit in chassis/aero is completely irrelevant to the question wether the Mercedes supply is completely 100% equal.
I don't think suggesting that Mercedes looks after themselves first and foremost is insane or "looking for spooks".

You know who else, besides me and Damon Hill, thinks that?
Mclaren.

Mclaren's move to Honda was born from a belief that you can't compete with Mercedes while being supplied by them.
Even with a contract saying they would get up to date hardware and support they thought if they wanted to beat them they needed to split.

Their move to Honda is far from paying off (i'm hedging on the "all our problems will be gone in 2016" Arai is selling) but it might pay dividends in the future (keyword FUTURE).

If Williams truly wants more than what they got the last years, or a lucky win, a bold move like that might be needed.

In the future try to stick to the point of discussion.

[turbof1]

What great overreaction. not even for a second i suggested that with the engine that goes into Lewis car Bottas would be world champion, i don't think anyone posting in this thread did (i hope they didn't).
Yes, Mercedes in fact produced a fantastic car and their wins are very much deserved, nothing else should be said about that.

The deficit in chassis/aero is completely irrelevant to the question wether the Mercedes supply is completely 100% equal.
I don't think suggesting that Mercedes looks after themselves first and foremost is insane or "looking for spooks".

You know who else, besides me and Damon Hill, thinks that?
Mclaren.

Mclaren's move to Honda was born from a belief that you can't compete with Mercedes while being supplied by them.
Even with a contract saying they would get up to date hardware and support they thought if they wanted to beat them they needed to split.

Their move to Honda is far from paying off (i'm hedging on the "all our problems will be gone in 2016" Arai is selling) but it might pay dividends in the future (keyword FUTURE).

If Williams truly wants more than what they got the last years, or a lucky win, a bold move like that might be needed.

In the future try to stick to the point of discussion.

I agree to this. Foxhound, whatever is getting further discussed, can we just keep to what the other party has said without excaggerating it?

[FoxHound]

His point is clear, Honda would be equally happy if Mclaren-Honda or Williams-Honda won a race.
You can't say the same for Mercedes and Ferrari.

Symonds took a little veiled shot today at the Mercedes equality.

Like Turbo, i can totally buy the "we just got these units ready" excuse for Monza, for Sochi/4th allocation... kinda on the we don't give a rats about you guys side of things.

I'm reading your narrative Sevach,

You are it seems, happy to chew the fat on "equality" and indeed suggesting a Honda move for Williams would be a good one(performance dependant).
My last post clearly outlines the issues Williams face today are not related to the PU, or it's perceived (in)equality.
It explains why at "engine" tracks the gap to Mercedes decreases, and why at Aero/chassis tracks the gap increases. That much is clear as day.
So while we debate something that is clearly a very good asset for this team(the Merc PU), and whether it pretty much the same as the factory team within reason....the chassis and aero is no match for Mercedes, not even close.

Therefore it is relevant that the greatest gains will be made utilising those two disciplines, rather than speculating that a supplier "don't give a rats about you guys". I mean no ill will in that, I call it as I see it.

In the future try to stick to the point of discussion.

You raised the point, that it would make sense for Williams to switch because Mercedes would not be happy to see a customer beat them. In so doing you also insinuated that Mercedes obstruct and hinder Williams by not allowing them dyno time, and by not being "equal" in their supply.

I challenged those points because they are extravagant claims, even though there is no actual evidence to prove it.
In amongst this, I put the whole façade into context for you by showing where Williams need to make improvements.
Then there is the issue of Honda, and the uphill battle they face. On top of this, there is also no guarantee that Honda will not favour McLaren, leaving Williams in exactly the same situation.

You can't really get much closer to the point than that. But if I over elaborated, I apologies, it's a nasty habit of mine.

Boa sorte amigo!

Fim

[turbof1]

I think it is worth noting that back in 2014 during the Monza race, there was a specific conversation, I believe through the team radio, that Williams infact had to make a quick request at Mercedes to turn up the power in order to be able to overtake someone. Mercedes allowed it back then, but only for a few laps.

Of course it's not the PU that makes the difference between Williams and Mercedes. Sevach never even denied that or argued that. You are trying to discuss something else then what is being discussed. The discussion is about whether the Merc powered teams get equal PU treatment, regardless of their respective and relative performance.

That being said, unequal treatment is not the same as Mercedes disadvantaging on purpose the other Merc teams. First of all, one simply has to consider they develop it and by that know much, much better to use the PU properly. This is probably why Williams has to request Mercedes for permission to turn up the power: Williams is not as able to judge correct useage.

Secondly, secundary effects like judging the correct amount of cooling and the packaging is another advantage. I'm very sure Mercedes will only share knowledge about this on base-only data. After all, this is part of the chassis side and Mercedes has nothing to do with Williams' chassis.

In short, there is no equality in the sense that the works team simply has a natural advantage. Having the same materials is not the same as equality; knowledge of how to properly use those materials is a very important here. We are talking about enormously complex machinery.

Which btw does not change my view that Williams could have received the updates on the 4th allocation. Like Sevach said: you can certainly buy Mercedes their reasoning for Italy, but not for Russia. I deliberately call it neglectance due I do not want to insinuate either deliberately disadvantaging Williams or contract breach, as I really do not believe that was the case. The most logical reason I find to be is they have used up production capacity on prototype parts for this year.

Sevach neither made the point Mercedes would dislike being beaten in particular by Williams. Well, they wouldn't like it, but as far as I can tell Mercedes does not view Williams as a threat (opposed to Red Bull, which they did view as a threat if they were ever given the same PU). I don't necessarily agree that they should team up with Honda, rather I think they should follow the example and attract a new PU manufacturer. McLaren gained obvious aerodynamic advantages out of it that Williams can too. And, it assures you have a partner who solely cares about the PU business in your garage ONlY. It makes a big difference, although again Williams has a rather average aero department, with a somewhat older spec windtunnel.

[trinidefender]

My last post clearly outlines the issues Williams face today are not related to the PU, or it's perceived (in)equality.
It explains why at "engine" tracks the gap to Mercedes decreases, and why at Aero/chassis tracks the gap increases. That much is clear as day.
So while we debate something that is clearly a very good asset for this team(the Merc PU), and whether it pretty much the same as the factory teams within reason....the chassis and aero is no match for Mercedes, not even close.

If I may add something into your slightly heated debate. I believe that there is a bigger disparity between customer PU's output compared to the the Merc constructor PU output than is made out to be here.

However while yes williams does have the best customers PU here there is another important reason that less DF heavy tracks reduce the time difference from Merc. I'm talking about the aero efficiency of their car when it comes to drag. You cannot simply say their aero is terrible and leave it at that. It is evident that they are one of the east cars in the grid when it comes to producing the least drag from what downforce they do make. This allows them to top the speed traps and helps heavily close the gaps on less "aero" based tracks.

I hate that term anyway, considering the downforce level of F1 cars even in Monza setup is huge it would fit better (at least in my head) to term tracks as either maximum downforce or maximum aero efficiency tracks.

The argument about the difference between customer and manufacturer based PU's is a topic that should probably have its own thread.

[Big Mangalhit]

I really think Williams are exactly where they want and should be. Yes they have virtually no chance of winning the WCC but they have a almost secure 3/4 place. Considering where they were in 2013 that is a really good improvement. Together with that they are attracting good sponsors and are probably in the best position in terms of financial balance and independence.

For me it seems they are happy and should be for a few years while they keep on cashing year after year and investing in facilities to maybe do a big investment in the next massive change in paradigm rules. Until then just keep on doing a good work day after day to secure the 3/4 places in WCC and maybe learn with the pit wall mistakes they seem to keep on making.

Also this new partnership with manor could be a way to gain some influence in another team and test dome new suspension ideas that seem to hurt them in slow corner tracks.

They just sound responsible and realistic to me, I can imagine a good future ahead, let's see.

[LookBackTime]

well, well ...

Williams F1 contemplating Honda power switch

Williams’ head of performance Rod Smedley has played down suggestions the Grove based squad might be contemplating a shock switch from Formula 1’s field-leading Mercedes power.

The speculation first surfaced a few days ago, when Williams’ world champion of 1996, Damon Hill, suggested that moving away from Mercedes might be the only way the independent team can recapture its former glory.

“I sort of suggested to Claire (Williams) last year that the problem is they have the same engine as the Mercedes team,” he was quoted by Sky.

“I think as a team wanting to win the outright championship, strategically they would be better off with another engine and I think the only other engine you can think of is a Honda,” Hill added.

He acknowledged that Honda had a “catastrophic” return to F1 last year in works collaboration with McLaren, but thinks the Japanese carmaker will fight back.

“I could be wrong,” Hill continued, “but if they make the sort of impression they should do, then for Williams to get ahead of Ferrari and Mercedes they are going to have to have a different engine”.

There may be more to the story than just Hill’s opinion.

The German-language source Auto Bild Motorsport claims that Williams is indeed contemplating the switch to Honda power, having finished third with Mercedes for the past two seasons in the new ‘power unit’ era.

Like McLaren-Honda, a collaboration between Williams and Honda would not be new, after the world championships of 1986 and 1987.

Last year, McLaren supremo Ron Dennis blocked Red Bull’s move to Honda power, but Auto Bild claims he is more open to the idea of a deal for Williams.

But Smedley, Williams’ lead engineer, played down the rumours.

“First of all we are really, really happy with the level of service and the power unit itself that we get from Mercedes,” he said.

Smedley admitted that Williams fell a development step behind the works Mercedes team last year, but indicated that the teams will return to parity for 2016.

“I think ultimately we are really happy,” he insisted. “They (Mercedes) are a very professional outfit and they supply an incredible power unit as well.”

[Juzh]

I think it is worth noting that back in 2014 during the Monza race, there was a specific conversation, I believe through the team radio, that Williams infact had to make a quick request at Mercedes to turn up the power in order to be able to overtake someone. Mercedes allowed it back then, but only for a few laps.

This could be for reliability purposes.

[turbof1]

I think it is worth noting that back in 2014 during the Monza race, there was a specific conversation, I believe through the team radio, that Williams infact had to make a quick request at Mercedes to turn up the power in order to be able to overtake someone. Mercedes allowed it back then, but only for a few laps.

This could be for reliability purposes.

In all probability it is. Again, Mercedes has develop these pieces of technological art, so it goes without saying they know better then WIlliams how to handle them.

[LookBackTime]

google translate from Italian Magazine - 2016 Mercedes Engine

moved the article to: "Williams FW38 Mercedes Speculation Thread"

[nevill3]

I think it is worth noting that back in 2014 during the Monza race, there was a specific conversation, I believe through the team radio, that Williams infact had to make a quick request at Mercedes to turn up the power in order to be able to overtake someone. Mercedes allowed it back then, but only for a few laps.

This could be for reliability purposes.

In all probability it is. Again, Mercedes has develop these pieces of technological art, so it goes without saying they know better then WIlliams how to handle them.

I remember that incident, Williams wanted "permission" to use a higher engine mode to help them make a pass on track or maintain position. The speculation at the time was that Mercedes advise their customers as to how many laps or amount of time certain high power engine modes can be used for to maintain reliability over the expected life of any given engine. I t was guessed that either Williams had used up the recommended allowance or was unsure as to how much extra they had left to use.

As for parity between customer teams and manufacturers last year Williams made the decision to take their last engine without the upgrades but they were offered the new spec engine just like RedBull were by Renault.