naturally aspirated 3.0l V12 by todays standards

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
gruntguru
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Re: naturally aspirated 3.0l V12 by todays standards

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J.A.W. wrote:
strad wrote:you get a thumbs up for that one http://s22.photobucket.com/user/STRAD2/ ... 1.jpg.html
Who gets a "thumbs up..." where - & for what?
Why not utilize the quote & reputation functions instead, for clarity - which the forum provides - as intended..

I do agree that the super-costly/high-efficiency/mega-durable M-B 'steam-roller' approach has resulted
in surely unintended consequences - esp' given the tightly prescribed engine rules, currently in force..
Had to give you a "thumbs up" for that one JAW. (mostly because you were getting perilously close to negative territory.)
je suis charlie

gruntguru
gruntguru
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Re: naturally aspirated 3.0l V12 by todays standards

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strad wrote:Well JAW: You're not supposed to upvote simply because you agree with someone.
Hear, hear.
(And an upvote for making good sense)
je suis charlie

OO7
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Re: naturally aspirated 3.0l V12 by todays standards

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gruntguru wrote:
Blaze1 wrote:Don't forget rotary valves in these estimations. :D
IIRC the Bishop rotary valve in V10 F1 configuration strikes a hurdle at about 23,000 rpm - the intake tract can't be shortened enough for correct wave action above that speed. Of course a 3L V12 would have smaller cylinders so the rotary valves would be scaled down and a shorter tract obtained. 25+K????
Imagine the sound it would make with exhaust manifolds joined to form a single outlet. :shock:

The online document mentioned 25K as the maximum speed of such an engine but didn't specify the cylinder dimensions. Considering the primary use/introduction of the application was to be a 3L V10, perhaps it is this configuration that the quoted engine speed is attached?

J.A.W.
J.A.W.
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Re: naturally aspirated 3.0l V12 by todays standards

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strad wrote:
JAW : who gets a "thumbs up..." where - & for what?
Why not utilize the quote & reputation functions instead, for clarity - which the forum provides - as intended..
Well JAW: You're not supposed to upvote simply because you agree with someone.
I didn't.. & I explained what it was - that I found myself in agreement with, technical-topic-wise..
.. rather than simply issue.. a pretty vacant cartoon image..

Oddly enough, the prospect of super-tight technical rules intended to constrain performance differences..
.. actually resulting in a near monopoly of the top step of the box by Merc-men, seems to have surprised even.. Bernie..
"Well, we knocked the bastard off!"

Ed Hilary on being 1st to top Mt Everest,
(& 1st to do a surface traverse across Antarctica,
in good Kiwi style - riding a Massey Ferguson farm
tractor - with a few extemporised mod's to hack the task).

gruntguru
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Re: naturally aspirated 3.0l V12 by todays standards

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Yes the BRV comments were in reference to a 300cc/cylinder engine with a particular bore diameter. This would dictate an optimum dimension for the rotary valve - the length of which (without added ram-tubes) was appropriate for about 23k.

A 3L V12 (250cc/cyl) would need a smaller/shorter valve so presumably would suit rpm up to some higher limit.
je suis charlie

Tommy Cookers
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Re: naturally aspirated 3.0l V12 by todays standards

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wasn't the BRV used with a lesser bore:stroke ratio than the unprecedentedly high ratio that the N/A V8s finally reached ?

in such engines the poppet valve area was relatively larger than ever before (Cosworth gave a VE of 140% with mandatory fixed inlet length)
also (for any given bore:stroke ratio) the poppet valve 250cc cylinder will allow a relatively larger valve area than the 300cc cylinder
a small price paid is the valve clearance volume preventing a CR quite as high as these very high rpm engines could otherwise use

(reminding myself) in principle it's the port area to atmosphere that gives gas velocity and stagnation pressure for optimal N/A charging
not the valve area - as long as the valve area is enough (Cosworth said it's their first engine that has such)
given the optimal inlet tract length of course
Last edited by Tommy Cookers on 17 Mar 2016, 10:55, edited 1 time in total.

Jolle
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Re: naturally aspirated 3.0l V12 by todays standards

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Just looking at the Ferrari F1 89, about 25 years old now, 600HP from 3.5L V12 at 12.500 rpm. If you compare that with a street legal BMW s1000rr, what gets more revs, way more mileage and more horsepower while complying to street Euro regulations.... No idea how this is relevant but, damn... That is some progress!

J.A.W.
J.A.W.
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Re: naturally aspirated 3.0l V12 by todays standards

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To be fair, Honda had the 4T super-high rpm, pent-roof combustion chamber 4V poppet-valve architecture
down pat.. 50+ years ago.. via 6 cylinder 250cc G.P. motorcycle mills, (that showed HCCI characteristics too)..

But Harry Ricardo had long previously showed that fast operating poppet valves in larger scales had self-defeating characteristics..

Swirl, turbulence & other efficiency matters..
..such as are currently being addressed via the high-pressure, fairly low rpm, but costly/complex DFI-turbo-compound F1 mills..
"Well, we knocked the bastard off!"

Ed Hilary on being 1st to top Mt Everest,
(& 1st to do a surface traverse across Antarctica,
in good Kiwi style - riding a Massey Ferguson farm
tractor - with a few extemporised mod's to hack the task).

Edis
Edis
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Joined: 31 Jan 2010, 16:58

Re: naturally aspirated 3.0l V12 by todays standards

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Jolle wrote:Just looking at the Ferrari F1 89, about 25 years old now, 600HP from 3.5L V12 at 12.500 rpm. If you compare that with a street legal BMW s1000rr, what gets more revs, way more mileage and more horsepower while complying to street Euro regulations.... No idea how this is relevant but, damn... That is some progress!
In terms of specific power, these engines are actually very similar (190-200 hp/l). The Tipo 035 produced 650-670 hp compared with the BMWs roughly 200 hp; the bore-to-stroke ratio is bacically identical but with Tipo 035 having slightly larger cylinders (291 cc vs. 250 cc) which explains the slightly lower engine speeds and the very slight difference in specific power.

Motorcycles are not subjected to the same emissions standards as cars, and of course, these are only applicable to part load operation which means that they are not a significant hurdle given modern three way catalysts and electronic engine control.

Milage is not releveant as one engine is in a lightweight motorcycle, the other in racing car, but I wouldn't expect any major difference in specific fuel comsumption between these engines.

So, after about 25 years a motorcycle manufacturer have produced an engine with roughly similar performance of a F1 engine.

Tipo 035 was followed with 036 for the 1990 season (with about 690 hp), which also was the basis for the road car engine in Ferrari F50.

Vortex347
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Re: naturally aspirated 3.0l V12 by todays standards

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Hi awesome thread, hope I'm not too late to reply (only just found it).

Honda's 3l v10 engine produced about 950hp at 18500rpm in 2006
(source here: http://www.formula1-dictionary.net/engi ... story.html)

I personally reckon a v10 would be better than a v12 especially in regards to the weight aspect you mentioned in your opening post (v10 engine would be lighter than v12 and less complex).

First and foremost, the power aspect of the cars wouldn't really be comparable to what they were running in the past. My main reason for this is the introduction of Direct Injection in the 2014 turbo v6 engines compared to multi port fuel previously.
The advantages of direct injection (over MPFI) in regards to power are huge.
Running DI on these new engines would yield more power due to the fact that DI doesn't spray fuel into the cylinder until the instant it needs it for the combustion cycle. This means you could run a higher compression ratio and not have to worry about engine knock. Higher compression ratio = bigger bang = more power (possibly a significant torque increase too due to the extra force the piston is being subjected to).

Mazda's new skyactiv technology (uses DI on petrol engines) and enables compression ratios of 13:1 (a huge thing to take note of with this is the engines aren't built from any exotic materials, have a large safety margin and large reliability margin for longevity). Take into account some Dirt bikes made by ktm and yamaha are pushing 14:1 + on their 250cc four strokes also using fairly ordinary materials (AND no pneumatic valves either) well...

It'd be pretty hard to gauge what these guys could come up with but with the DI compared to MPFI and beefed up comp. ratio. I'd say 16:1 would be a walk in the park for these guys, you'd probably be looking at a 10-16% power increase assuming the engines are revving the same. In regards to rpm I think 22000 rpm is the maximum these engines could rev to before they start being overcome by large amounts of friction (which would sap power). compared to the honda at the start that'd be another 10-13% power so all up you'd be looking at maybe 25% on top of that 950hp.

So about 1200 hp I reckon with a Specific output of 400hp/L for a N/A engine; pretty insane.

This is also assuming fuel hasn't change octane rating...

In terms of engine weight well steel crankshaft is the Achilles heel of lightweight engines in f1. Get rid of that and replace it with something a lot lighter and that 95kg engine will be down to about 85kg.

Lighter crankshaft would also have lower rotational inertia so more power to the wheels there.

For lightweight and durability though it's pretty hard to beat magnesium and there have been a lot of breakthroughs in making it corrosion resistant (through the use of stainless alloys and magnesium) and neutralizing it's spontaneous combustion properties (by adding silicon molecules I believe)

http://www.gizmag.com/stainless-magnesi ... ash/28856/

If it's possible to make an engine block out of stainless magnesium well the possibilities are endless. This would easily supersede steel, cast iron, aluminium, titanium and beryllium too (an illegal material in f1 atm). I reckon about 65kg overall so about 25kg lighter than the old engines.

J.A.W.
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Re: naturally aspirated 3.0l V12 by todays standards

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Edis wrote: So, after about 25 years a motorcycle manufacturer have produced an engine with roughly similar performance of a F1 engine.
Not really, since the Aprilia RS 250 showroom production road bike from a couple of decades ago was rated at 70hp..
..or an N/A specific output of 280hp per litre.. of course it was a 2T, but still rather shy of the Aprilia G.P.'s 440hp/Ltr..

( Or 1320hp.. from a 24 cyl/3ltr mill)..
"Well, we knocked the bastard off!"

Ed Hilary on being 1st to top Mt Everest,
(& 1st to do a surface traverse across Antarctica,
in good Kiwi style - riding a Massey Ferguson farm
tractor - with a few extemporised mod's to hack the task).

Tommy Cookers
Tommy Cookers
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Re: naturally aspirated 3.0l V12 by todays standards

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Vortex347 wrote: .....The advantages of direct injection (over MPFI) in regards to power are huge.
....could run a higher compression ratio and not have to worry about engine knock. Higher compression ratio = more power
Mazda's new skyactiv technology (uses DI on petrol engines) and enables compression ratios of 13:1 ..... Dirt bikes made by ktm and yamaha are pushing 14:1 + on their 250cc four strokes also using fairly ordinary materials (AND no pneumatic valves either) well...
This is also assuming fuel hasn't change octane rating...
In terms of engine weight well steel crankshaft is the Achilles heel of lightweight engines in f1. Get rid of that and replace it with something a lot lighter and that 95kg engine will be down to about 85kg.
Lighter crankshaft would also have lower rotational inertia so more power to the wheels there......it's pretty hard to beat magnesium and there have been a lot of breakthroughs in making it corrosion resistant .... and neutralizing it's spontaneous combustion properties (by adding silicon molecules I believe)
http://www.gizmag.com/stainless-magnesi ... ash/28856/
If it's possible to make an engine block out of stainless magnesium .... easily supersede steel, cast iron, aluminium, titanium and beryllium too (an illegal material in f1 atm).
(sorry about the quote chopping) ....
we know ....
the later N/A engines used about 95 Octane (the full 101 Octane is not needed at such high rpm, and combustion speed is more important)
and their CR was limited by the valve-piston clearance volume (c. 98 bore 41 stroke makes this worse than Mazda and dirtbikes examples)
super DI most beneficial in an engine where the CR is at the limit driven by detonation
where it is not DI may improve efficiency without improving power
Cosworth said (of their last engines) that PI gave better charge conditioning than DI (helping combustion speed/consistency imo)
BMW tried DI (was it raced ?)

density, specific strength, and specific stiffness of the useful engineering metals are closely related (except beryllium's)
the crankshaft is made from the strongest material - to minimises its journal diameter and velocity so giving the least bearing friction
probably the worst place to use a lighter material

trinidefender
trinidefender
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Joined: 19 Apr 2013, 20:37

Re: naturally aspirated 3.0l V12 by todays standards

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Tommy Cookers wrote:
Vortex347 wrote: .....The advantages of direct injection (over MPFI) in regards to power are huge.
....could run a higher compression ratio and not have to worry about engine knock. Higher compression ratio = more power
Mazda's new skyactiv technology (uses DI on petrol engines) and enables compression ratios of 13:1 ..... Dirt bikes made by ktm and yamaha are pushing 14:1 + on their 250cc four strokes also using fairly ordinary materials (AND no pneumatic valves either) well...
This is also assuming fuel hasn't change octane rating...
In terms of engine weight well steel crankshaft is the Achilles heel of lightweight engines in f1. Get rid of that and replace it with something a lot lighter and that 95kg engine will be down to about 85kg.
Lighter crankshaft would also have lower rotational inertia so more power to the wheels there......it's pretty hard to beat magnesium and there have been a lot of breakthroughs in making it corrosion resistant .... and neutralizing it's spontaneous combustion properties (by adding silicon molecules I believe)
http://www.gizmag.com/stainless-magnesi ... ash/28856/
If it's possible to make an engine block out of stainless magnesium .... easily supersede steel, cast iron, aluminium, titanium and beryllium too (an illegal material in f1 atm).
(sorry about the quote chopping) ....
we know ....
the later N/A engines used about 95 Octane (the full 101 Octane is not needed at such high rpm, and combustion speed is more important)
and their CR was limited by the valve-piston clearance volume (c. 98 bore 41 stroke makes this worse than Mazda and dirtbikes examples)
super DI most beneficial in an engine where the CR is at the limit driven by detonation
where it is not DI may improve efficiency without improving power
Cosworth said (of their last engines) that PI gave better charge conditioning than DI (helping combustion speed/consistency imo)
BMW tried DI (was it raced ?)

density, specific strength, and specific stiffness of the useful engineering metals are closely related (except beryllium's)
the crankshaft is made from the strongest material - to minimises its journal diameter and velocity so giving the least bearing friction
probably the worst place to use a lighter material
Are you sure they used journal bearings? I would have thought roller bearings would have been more appropriate, unless of course I am missing something here.

gruntguru
gruntguru
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Re: naturally aspirated 3.0l V12 by todays standards

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Not many engines using roller bearings any more.
je suis charlie

wuzak
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Re: naturally aspirated 3.0l V12 by todays standards

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trinidefender wrote:Are you sure they used journal bearings? I would have thought roller bearings would have been more appropriate, unless of course I am missing something here.
Yes, quite sure.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fluid_bearing