Post here all non technical related topics about Formula One. This includes race results, discussions, testing analysis etc. TV coverage and other personal questions should be in Off topic chat.
The regulations are new so doing something different has high rewards if it works.
On the other hand three years into regulations teams will have sussed out what is optimal and usually they are all follwing that single concept.
There is a third scenario. And i will usw the hybrid era as an example.
In the Hybrid era the low floor and high rake were two concepts but they are not fundamentaly different so that one has an advantage over the other. This is where being different can give gains on certain tracks or scertain situations.
In this Ground effect era... The rules are so tight that i think it's going to go one way... In 2024 all the cars might as well be copies.
In the overbody they will likely have the same predominant features, but we saw the same thing occur in the previous regs, so I don't think that's a particular failure of the 2022 rules. The diversity in design will be in the underfloor - ultimately where the majority of performance can be found; Symonds/Brawn etc always said this would be the case with a regulation set wherein venturi tunnels generate the majority of the car's downforce
Besides, even now teams are still coming up with new bodywork details and loopholes (see s-duct) that weren't implemented last year. Who knows what ideas teams have that they are not yet using for various reasons (weight, budget cap etc).
That may be true, but my point was that Mercedes themselves sensationalized the "poorness" of the W14. Would you disagree then and that they instead, downplayed the struggle?
Which only justifies how poor Mercedes feel the W14 is. Would you agree or disagree?
No time for quote tree preservation this morning....
Again I reiterate the point of damned if they do, damned if they don't.
I fail to see anything tangible for threads like these when the argument boils down to "well Mercedes said it was terrible".
It's not terrible. However it's relatively bad compared to what Mercedes have had over the last few years.
So what Mercedes feel and say, is from a position of dominance and title winning for 7 years. That standard is unsustainable for any team, and reversion to the mean will be inevitable. It really is just a matter of perspective.
Williams, Mclaren, AT, Alpha and maybe even Alpine would be happy to take this "terrible" car, whereas Red Bull would not. Perspective.
The flip side to the coin, and one where no doubt there would be threads created to mull and chew the fat on would be "is the W14 really that good" based on positive and optimistic PR. Knives sharpen when Merc say it's bad, knives sharpen when merc say it's good, so really it doesn't matter what they say because they'll catch flak for it regardless.
Is it really that complicated? The same thing happens in every sport, in which I'll cite Man Utd as a great example.
For many years dominant, now though considered 2nd rate. Still having won a Uefa cup, an EFL cup and the FA cup in last 5 years.
90% of teams in the premier league would take that, yet for UTD it's below par and doubly so when their rivals are winning more prestigious trophies.
Yet if they say they're having a bad season, I bet every fan would appreciate the context of what was being said.
You'd be hard pressed to find anyone saying 4th or 5th place is where Utd are happy finishing. Utd themselves acknowledge a poor run, which by 80% of the league standard would be considered "good".
So it's acceptable and readily acknowledged in football, but it's a problem and contentious in a more "civilised" sport in F1
The Merc stopped porpoising after Spain. This was only 5 races into the season. There were 16-17 other races. Hamilton just hated the car from start to finish.
Cmon man....that's not even close to being accurate.
Canada porpoising practically everywhere, and even breaking onboard telemetry sensor.
Baku
US GP
There are many examples where the W13 was porpoising after Spain.
If he is getting physical pain in it, can't press on, is frustrated by the car, as we clearly saw for most the season(not up until Spain), it would reflect in his opinion of it right?
Why is it contentious?
Compared to a customer car, they are an abject failure. Maybe for the concept, they've done a good job, and we'll never know cause no one has a similar concept. But Aston this year have proven without a shadow of a doubt that it's the wrong concept to pick to begin with.
They just followed Red Bull's footsteps, worked on it for about a year and gained 2.5 seconds. Maybe there wasn't that much to gain from the W13 to the 14 had merc done the same, but could anyone at this point contest they'd be worse off ?
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-Atatürk
I feel it's disingenuous to atribute MB comments to off the cuff remarks.
They are themselves making a whole crapstorm of publicity, both positive and negative about their own ability, technical competence, projected performance, expected gains etc etc.
It's no wonder they are receiving myriad views of their whole team performance.
Remember, LH T-ed the whole whole sharade up with that memorable line "my team don't make mistakes" could he have prepared the ground better for the oncoming judgment from the great unwashed, delivered in all the interest channels that exist today?
It is comical yes, are they complacent (question in original post) I'd say that yes they are after their own "information" presence the last two years. They say they are humble, TW quote, when onlookers should be the judge of that, not the
subject.
It's their own reference to not copying RB that figures in most elevated position from their team retort, well if that's so important to them we'll see just how far they get. Aerodynamic competence doesn't follow that sentiment, they either have the means to compete, match, beat their competitors or not. That's not, at the current status.
But that is what's fascinating about this formula, no amount of spiel can hold ground to the fastest car.
That great saying "when the tide goes out, you can then see who was swimming naked" springs to mind. It is one of the best competitions of teams made of such varied skills, from technology, to thoughts, to human performance, and matched right down to the clock in thousandths of a second. I find each year intriguing.
Attributing anything a team or driver says as gospel is disingenuous.
From McLaren with their Honda debacle/Spygate, to Ferrari with their strategy/reliability cock-ups, to Red Bull with their kicking of Renault/Etc. It's not new, it's not unique to Formula one, Mercedes, Ferrari, RB, or sport in general.
But this thread specifically about MB and current performance, my comments restricted to that and clearly they have demonstrated absolutely no control in pr terms over their media channels.
That just invites a whole spectrum of speculation.
But this thread specifically about MB and current performance, my comments restricted to that and clearly they have demonstrated absolutely no control in pr terms over their media channels.
That just invites a whole spectrum of speculation.
As does any PR release which is literally the point of it.
I think what is evident though, is that whatever PR comes out... would never sit right with a section of fans.
And this is fine, everybody has a view.
But this thread specifically about MB and current performance, my comments restricted to that and clearly they have demonstrated absolutely no control in pr terms over their media channels.
That just invites a whole spectrum of speculation.
As does any PR release which is literally the point of it.
I think what is evident though, is that whatever PR comes out... would never sit right with a section of fans.
And this is fine, everybody has a view.
No, I don't see it that way.
They are issuing negative pr, about themselves.
What's the reason for that? Are they embarrassed by their lack of performance, judged by themselves?
Are the people issuing these statements trying to change the behaviour in their own technical facility? Via public forum.
The car is a really poor performer, judged by themselves, not me or anyone else. They are leading the chorus, as they did with the W13.
Its more that I don't see what they expected to happen.
But this thread specifically about MB and current performance, my comments restricted to that and clearly they have demonstrated absolutely no control in pr terms over their media channels.
That just invites a whole spectrum of speculation.
As does any PR release which is literally the point of it.
I think what is evident though, is that whatever PR comes out... would never sit right with a section of fans.
And this is fine, everybody has a view.
No, I don't see it that way.
They are issuing negative pr, about themselves.
What's the reason for that? Are they embarrassed by their lack of performance, judged by themselves?
Are the people issuing these statements trying to change the behaviour in their own technical facility? Via public forum.
The car is a really poor performer, judged by themselves, not me or anyone else. They are leading the chorus, as they did with the W13.
Its more that I don't see what they expected to happen.
They expect better, is the simple answer and so do a lot of their fans.
Better to appear to be honest and determined to fix issues than say nothing as if everything is ok. It's just PR to drive a specific view they want, that's it. No idea why we even needed this thread tbh.
Is the W14 bad? No.
Is it bad in context of previous Mercedes standards? Yes.
They expect better, is the simple answer and so do a lot of their fans.
Better to appear to be honest and determined to fix issues than say nothing as if everything is ok. It's just PR to drive a specific view they want, that's it. No idea why we even needed this thread tbh.
Is the W14 bad? No.
Is it bad in context of previous Mercedes standards? Yes.
