Carbon fibre moulding (chassis design update)

Here are our CFD links and discussions about aerodynamics, suspension, driver safety and tyres. Please stick to F1 on this forum.
manchild
manchild
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Joined: 03 Jun 2005, 10:54

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I could swear Scarbs mentioned same thing long time ago but I can't find that topic. :oops:

Now, to elegantly withdraw from crossfire I'll say that Ferrari did sell chassis 192 to Kroymans but to avoid suspicion they've switched chassis plate 192 with chassis plate 193. If Kroymans was checking in which chassis Schuey crashed in 1999 he'd easily find that it was 192 so scraping off 192 chassis plate and replacing it with 193 seams like a reasonable move in order to make potential buyer believe that he bought car that wasn't repaired from serious crash.

:mrgreen:

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Tom
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Joined: 13 Jan 2006, 00:24
Location: Bicester

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Anyway kurtiejjj, you seem pretty ambitious, I was wondering what kind of budget you were on and where abouts the project is based. It might be that there's a company near you that you can help.
You seem committed to this project and it seems a good idea if you can get it right. Who knows, might even lead to a whole new series.

Keep us updated and just ask if you need any help.
Murphy's 9th Law of Technology:
Tell a man there are 300 million stars in the universe and he'll believe you. Tell him a bench has wet paint on it and he'll have to touch to be sure.

AeroGT3
AeroGT3
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Joined: 29 Mar 2006, 23:22

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I am definitely an Aerodynamics and not a composite designer, but make sure, for safety and wear, that you include at least one layer of aramid (Kevlar).

Carbon shatters upon impact, while Kevlar is nearly impenetrable. Kevlar also has outstanding abrasion resistance that you might want to take advantage of if you're bottoming out ;)

Also, don't discount wetlay! It's still a great technique that can be very strong when properly done.

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Tom
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Joined: 13 Jan 2006, 00:24
Location: Bicester

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Heres an idea, if you're not too high on cash you could try getting a sponsor, explain to them that you're building a race car (which are good at attracting a fair bit of attention) and if they provide some funding or services you'll be more than happy to plaster their name all over the sides. A lot of people will say get lost, but it would be worth it for the one that doesn't and couphs up.
Murphy's 9th Law of Technology:
Tell a man there are 300 million stars in the universe and he'll believe you. Tell him a bench has wet paint on it and he'll have to touch to be sure.

kurtiejjj
kurtiejjj
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Joined: 21 Jan 2007, 17:40

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@Tom: the project is based in in the north of Holland. Let's say I'm on an adequate budget :lol: . No I was thinking of about 5000 pounds for the chassis carbon and kevlar.

I hope to get the engine from a scrapyard or very cheap motorcycle (I have been thinking about the hayabusa but that's quite rare to find on a scrapyard, anyone else know of any good tuneable bike engines?) and the gearbox maybe the one radical stuck on their cars, which is as far as I know a quaife box or a hewland unit which isn't that expensive either. However I still don't have an idea which hubs/uprights I'm going to use, any suggestions. Brakes will be the obvious AP racing. suspension thingies I haven't looked into with great depth, but nothing fancy in that department, I'm still looking for a good book on that.

I'm trying at the moment to calcute the approximate stiffness of a carbon chassis with alu honeycomb and kevlar/aramid fibres.

RH1300S
RH1300S
1
Joined: 06 Jun 2005, 15:29

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kurtiejjj wrote:@Tom: the project is based in in the north of Holland
So, not a hillclimb car then :D

If not a 'busa. Honda Blackbird or Kawasaki ZZR1200. All strong engines with a big capacity to start you off with.

zac510
zac510
22
Joined: 24 Jan 2006, 12:58

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manchild wrote: It is the truth but I can't prove it.
Thanks for proving yourself wrong in the subsequent post.

kurtiejjj, you should come over to the UK and look at some of the UK hillclimb/sprint cars tht run carbon chassis and motorbike engines. I can show you some photos.
Some manufacturers you might like to look at are OMS, Gould, Force, Swift, Jedi..

kurtiejjj
kurtiejjj
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Joined: 21 Jan 2007, 17:40

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I have got a bit further to try and decide what to do! I have had the idea to use Reynard F3000 wishbones and uprights so that I don't have to make them myself and hopefully I will find some reynard gearbox casing as well, will make this project a damn lot simpler.

However I could buy a Reynard F3000 chassis instead they don't seem to be that expensive at the moment.

Carlos
Carlos
11
Joined: 02 Sep 2006, 19:43
Location: Canada

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Buying a chassis would reduce the project workload in half. You would only have to build a body ( open roof sports car? ) or find a body kit to fit the monocoque ( similar wheelbase & track - Ferrari P4? - your choice? :wink: )then add all sub-systems.

Carlos
Carlos
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Joined: 02 Sep 2006, 19:43
Location: Canada

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This article is a primer on D!Y hand-layup of composite materials " Basics of Composite Construction" by Ron Alexander - Mostly concerns fiberglass but also mentions, and applies to other fabrics & resins

http://www.exp-aircraft.com/library/ale ... posit.html

speedrcr
speedrcr
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Joined: 13 Jan 2005, 21:58
Location: Greensboro

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Just wondering why you are using aluminum honeycomb? Do you need the additional stability or is it more for energy absorption? In my experience, aluminum has a host of problems associated with it when trying to incorporate it into a carbon structure....not the least of which is galvanic corrosion. Also, I hear that it is VERY sensitive to cleanliness.
I typically use 3-6 lb/ft3 Nomex core depending on what type of laminate/load the area needs to support. Rarely have I seen an actual core failure, the typical failure modes for sandwich panel construction is either a face-sheet disbond, or for thinner laminates, face-sheet crippling.
Also, what lamina(te) failure criteria are you using, and what do you mean that "carbon does weaken with time stress". Are you speaking about fatigue? If you have a closed form solution for calculating the fatigue life of composite structures, I would really be interested to see how you are doing it. Thanks.


Erik

kurtiejjj
kurtiejjj
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Joined: 21 Jan 2007, 17:40

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@speedrcr: aluminium honeycomb indeed is prone to corrosion, but as F1 uses it I thought perhaps it's a good idea to make it stronger more impact resistance.

I'm still doubting what to do just buy a project race car or build one myself. Plans for the home-build car have changed though, if I would build something perhaps I will build a prototype style car, and instead of moulding try monocoque structure with carbon panels instead of the usual aluminium however I would have to do some calculating if that's going to work. Reason for this change is that I would be able to compete in a lot more classes; britcar, interserie, sportscar challenange austria. Other problem is engine choice, I would really like a Hart 420R 4 cylinder as they are powerful and cheap or the F1 415T engine which costs about the same to run. However I came across a coworth DFX engine lately for 15k euros, rebuild! That is surely the cheapest way to have 700HP, although I'm a bit scared for the rebuild costs. Beside I have no idea I could handle 700HP :lol: . It all seems a bit ambitious, and it is but that's how I am, sadly. To keep costs down I will try to use F3000 uprights wishbones etc, which are available.

Other idea was to keep it simple and buy a 1980 F2 car which are still cheap as there isn't a special series for it yet. Would be a very good investment as you bear in mind that 70s F2 cars now cost 30k+. I have also been looking at something even faster an f1 turbo car, seems mad perhaps but they're incredibly cheap with the right engine, and I mean a hart 4 cylinder turbo with that, I know of a few for sale for 30k pounds, still a damn lot of money but think of the history and see it as an investment it would make sense although I could not run it a lot which would be sad even though these Hart 415 T engines are very cheap to maintain.

Please help I have no idea what to do! 8)

kurtiejjj
kurtiejjj
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Joined: 21 Jan 2007, 17:40

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Help?! :P

speedrcr
speedrcr
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Joined: 13 Jan 2005, 21:58
Location: Greensboro

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build it yourself

kurtiejjj
kurtiejjj
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Joined: 21 Jan 2007, 17:40

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yes that would be the most cost-effective way of doing things, if I would be sure the car would handle well and be competitive. However as I do have some experience tinkering around with cars I am not sure I have the engineering capacities to build one almost completely from scratch, don't get me wrong though I do know very well what I am doing. But it would be sad to see money go down the drain. That's why I'm looking into other possibilities as well.