Designing an FSAE chassis

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Scotracer
Scotracer
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Re: Designing an FSAE chassis

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Jersey Tom wrote:I kinda liked Inventor more than Solidworks for handling large assemblies. Admittedly that was for spaceflight payloads and circa 2005.
Inventor is my favourite CAD programme. The 2011 suite is fantastic.
Powertrain Cooling Engineer

Carlos
Carlos
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Re: Designing an FSAE chassis

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madtown77 - Haven't seen an aluminum monocoque in a few years? Here's one, built in Detroit; well - in the same neighborhood. Drive out to Race Car Replicas at 37575 Groesbeck Highway Clinton Township - they'll show you they work just fine :)
Image

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They build replica/clones of the Ford GT40, Porsche 917 and Ferrari P4. Granted they jet cut and weld the chassis, mostly because of the high volume of cars they build, but there is no reason why a classic riveted aluminum brake built monocoque
can't be done. I recommend lindsaybks.com " How to Do Aircraft Sheet Metal Work # 21893.

madtown77
madtown77
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Joined: 06 Dec 2009, 23:26
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Re: Designing an FSAE chassis

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Carlos wrote:madtown77 - Haven't seen an aluminum monocoque in a few years? Here's one, built in Detroit; well - in the same neighborhood. Drive out to Race Car Replicas at 37575 Groesbeck Highway Clinton Township - they'll show you they work just fine :)
Image

Uploaded with ImageShack.us
They build replica/clones of the Ford GT40, Porsche 917 and Ferrari P4. Granted they jet cut and weld the chassis, mostly because of the high volume of cars they build, but there is no reason why a classic riveted aluminum brake built monocoque
can't be done. I recommend lindsaybks.com " How to Do Aircraft Sheet Metal Work # 21893.
I wasn't claiming they didn't work, just that in FSAE they tend to not work.

In the real world they work just fine.
University of Wisconsin - Madison
Formula SAE: '06, '07, '08, '09

2007 Formula SAE World Champions
2008 Formula SAE at VIR Champions
2009 We switched engines and learned a lot...the hard way

Smokes
Smokes
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Re: Designing an FSAE chassis

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i have an oldish imcomplete solidworks asm of fsae car somewhere if it any help i can go and dig it out.

marcush.
marcush.
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Joined: 09 Mar 2004, 16:55

Re: Designing an FSAE chassis

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here a few words about F (GRP skin)and M(aluminium skin) honeycomp sandwich board chassis construction..

to me this is a very doable ways of constructing a very stiff and precise structure.
compared to fabricating /welding a spaceframe or doing a CF Tub this looks straightforward ,almost lego-stile car manufacture....very efficient ,almost no special hardware and skill required..proper bonding technique is key challenge ,and a bit of CNC machining of the board,but entirely doable to highest standards.it´s second to cf in weight and dirt cheap....
and to quote mr o´Rourke from Williams :we would not even think of using CF if we did not have to....

http://www.tech.plym.ac.uk/sme/acmc/download/chass.pdf

http://www.grandprix.com/gpe/cref-orobri.html

Carlos
Carlos
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Re: Designing an FSAE chassis

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"...here a few words about F (GRP skin)and M(aluminium skin) honeycomp sandwich board chassis construction..." marcush

Some additional links:
http://autospeed.com.au/cms/article.htm ... e&A=111401
http://www.autospeed.com./cms/A_110989/article.html
http://www.autospeed.com./cms/A_110990/article.html
http://www.angelfire.com/ma/ameyavaidya/F_sandwch3.htm

marcush.
marcush.
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Re: Designing an FSAE chassis

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yep ...that sums it up ..although this is way too heavy ..not very inspired use of the base material ...
this is a very practical ways of achieving FSAE goals and not putting in lots of effort and then get stranded by a lost wheel..

of course you will have to invest some thoghts in just how you feed the loads into that honeycomb structure...an the end product may be a bit too boxy for 2011.. but then you´d have a good foundation and target to improve next year...

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mep
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Joined: 11 Oct 2003, 15:48
Location: Germany

Re: Designing an FSAE chassis

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That’s true. The way they designed the chassis is somehow ...strange.
For FSAE I would prefer to see a well designed tube-frame chassis than gluing together some sandwich material.
In the end their car came up with a total weight of 150Kg and that would be a very good number for FSAE.


BTW.: I really like those chassis made from metal plates.
You can laser cut the plates, bend them and welt it together.
It's a very easy, fast and cheap way to make a chassis.

marcush.
marcush.
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Joined: 09 Mar 2004, 16:55

Re: Designing an FSAE chassis

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mep wrote:That’s true. The way they designed the chassis is somehow ...strange.
For FSAE I would prefer to see a well designed tube-frame chassis than gluing together some sandwich material.
In the end their car came up with a total weight of 150Kg and that would be a very good number for FSAE.


BTW.: I really like those chassis made from metal plates.
You can laser cut the plates, bend them and welt it together.
It's a very easy, fast and cheap way to make a chassis.
who of the studends will be able to perform expert welding?

you will need a very elaborate and precise jig for this and still you will never get the precision..You may be able to convince a specialist fabricator to do this for you but still it will never be as light or as stiff as the cardboard toy..

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mep
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Re: Designing an FSAE chassis

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who of the studends will be able to perform expert welding?
Many teams do a lot of their welding themselve and I have high respect for them.
They just try it out and learn it by doing.
Most top teams do not and let some company, friend, sponsor or who ever do the welding.

There the welding is prolly done in the training workshop.
Btw. some students make a welding engineer and even those who do not should learn to weld during studies. I got a 1 week training course for welding during my studies and I did not made a special welding degree.

marcush.
marcush.
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Re: Designing an FSAE chassis

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mep wrote:
who of the studends will be able to perform expert welding?
Many teams do a lot of their welding themselve and I have high respect for them.
They just try it out and learn it by doing.
Most top teams do not and let some company, friend, sponsor or who ever do the welding.

There the welding is prolly done in the training workshop.
Btw. some students make a welding engineer and even those who do not should learn to weld during studies. I got a 1 week training course for welding during my studies and I did not made a special welding degree.
a week will give you the basics ...but honestly speaking the truth starts with off position welding ...as soon as you´re dangling upside down in a awkward position unable to really see anything and you need to do a perfect TIG weld NOW you will admit that a studend capable of performing this would be well advised to look for a job as welder. :wink:
to give you an idea what a good weld looks like for a steel frame:
http://lesmillerdesigns.com/images/weld ... l_pipe.jpg

thats how most guys perform when starting up :
http://moz.net.nz/photo/2008/01/22-welderplay/
:wtf: :wtf:
in between some hundred hours of welding and a lot of base knowledge.

I don´t think it is a good idea to do a USGP as your starting project in FSAe... :mrgreen: it pays of to judge your personal abilities realistically ,
sometimes it hurts ,but it pays of when it comes to getting a good end product ,ready in time.

Mystery Steve
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Re: Designing an FSAE chassis

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A lot of teams do their own welding (we did). I learned just as I was starting out on the project, and my first welds weren't as bad as the example you show. If you learn from someone who knows what they're doing, and you have some mechanical inclination, it's not a hard skill to learn if you just need to weld steel tubes together. If you take your time and make sure that your gaps are small it's actually pretty easy, albeit time consuming. Although, marcush is correct in saying that you need to be realistic in evaluating your ability. If you try it and find you can't do it, don't be afraid to outsource.

Speaking of good welding...

G37Sam
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Re: Designing an FSAE chassis

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WOW, those intake manifolds are a work of art!

marcush.
marcush.
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Joined: 09 Mar 2004, 16:55

Re: Designing an FSAE chassis

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again :
to perform a neat weld on a bench in comfort is one thing that can be learned in short time ,given some expert is available and you got some mechanical empathy...
welding a spaceframe includes a lot of off position welding ..thats where the amateurs and the experts quickly separate.
the welds of that aluminium manifold ..gosh ... that guy has surely done thousands
of hours of aluminium welds.. and his equipment has not seen anything steel and he would kill you using one single piece of his kit to work on ferrous products.. :mrgreen:
but ,coming back to the topic ..you obviously have to make decisions in the design process and as long as you don´t have a expert welder in your team it does not make any sense to start designing beautiful metal fabrications ,you have no clue of :how to design -as you have no expertise on the best layout practise to get to the desired result or have to aquire skills that will claim a lot of time as the weld quality is a product of experience =hours ...not a very efficient decision..imo.
don´t get me wrong ..I have my own TIG welding equipment and have done a lot of this stuff ..and had to learn to just not fall in that sort of trap - to badly want to do something -and pay the price for it ..wasting a lot of time needed somewhere else.. my name is not Andersson ,though.

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mep
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Re: Designing an FSAE chassis

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Marcush, like I told before you can find somebody doing the welding for you. That’s what we did. Even there I am quite sure was the welding done in the training shop and that’s just fine.
People always complain about a lack of good workers but to get them you must give jung people a chance to learn things.
That’s what Formula Student is about its not to get the perfect car somehow.
Its about learning.
That’s why I said I have high respect for teams who do their welding themselves. Even when the result can’t match dose of professional welders I rate it as high because its their own work.
You know some people start project where other tell you this never can be done by you. In the end the one who tries something will always achieve much more than the guy who does nothing.
We do things not because they are easy we do them because they are hard.

Opinions about such stuff vary depending in which country you are. Many things are handled totally different when you are in Silverstone compared to Hockenheim.

Even when you do a composite chassis you will need somebody with experience helping you.
Usually its easier to find somebody who helps with welding than with composites.

Lets say you can do it like this:
Start with a welded frame, when you are able to handle this go on and develop a composite chassis.