Grid and Race position biased KERS

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ringo
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Re: Grid and Race position biased KERS

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richard_leeds wrote:
Tumbarello wrote:Just accept that motor racing in general, and F1 in particular, is inherently processional and get on with it. I don't remember it ever being fundamentally different so no need to artificially create it.
Agreed

Excitement should be about increasing the risk of failure so drivers and cars are more often on (and over) the limit, as opposed to get out of jail cards or boost buttons
Listen to yourself, for shame. :lol: Is that what it comes down to,..... car failures?
I like those mind you, but i don't want that to be what decides entertainment. I don't like seeing sports men getting injured in the heat of battle and the same goes for the machines.
I rather see all 24 crawl over the line with cracks and bruises after 2 hours of pummeling.
This system will give you more than over the limit.

Take a look at this:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bn0TkquUDB4[/youtube]
now imagine 2 cars on either side of those 2. That's what i'm thinking of 5 laps before a race finishes.
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Tamburello
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Re: Grid and Race position biased KERS

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ringo wrote:
Take a look at this:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bn0TkquUDB4[/youtube]
now imagine 2 cars on either side of those 2. That's what i'm thinking of 5 laps before a race finishes.
You are obviously in fantasyland. What you're dreaming of has never existed in motor racing.

CMSMJ1
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Re: Grid and Race position biased KERS

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Giblet wrote:
CMSMJ1 wrote:
F1 is being dumbed down and almost pandering to the crowds. It is a meritocracy. it rewards hard work. It says a lot that the first team outside the big 4 (Mclaren, Ferrari, Williams, Renault/Benetton) has finally won something. Was it 1983 when the last non "Big 4" team won the WDC/WCC? Piquet @ Brabham?
Brawn, last year :)

lol.. :shock: Where does the time go! #-o

You do know what I mean though eh?
IMPERATOR REX ANGLORUM

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747heavy
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Re: Grid and Race position biased KERS

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Thanks for the explaination Ringo.

I did understand it, just was not sure if you would adjust it dynamic during the course of the race.

To sum it up in short, it comes to Power = Engine+KERS+((position-1)*KERS/23), which asummes a base KERS power, which lets say is 60kW. the the guy on pole has engine+60kW KERS and the guy who runs last has engine+120kw.

I do see some technical challenges to achieve this value, but as you say you could use a factor of let´s say 0.5, which gives the last guy only 90kW (or 30kW extra).
I´m sure that from an entertainment point of view, it´s a very neat idea.

I understand that people will argue from a "fairness" point of view.
To which conclusion you come, will depend on your POV in this respect, and which view and outlook you have to life and fairness in general.
I don´t want to judge here, It´s like a dynamic handicap.
It´s known to all, and it´s the same for all.
So, I don´t think it´s "unfair" as such.

If it is the right/good thing to do, is a different matter.

I thing it is "fairer" then the current moveable rear wing rule, where the guy in front can do nothing, unless he blocks on the straight, or drives the other guy of the track.

If the KERS technology develops a little bit more, I could see this happen in some years time.
I don´t think, all things considered (entertainment factor included), that it is a "bad" idea.

It would be easiest to implement with a spec KERS, but that´s not necessary, it could work with any KERS (needs to be powerful enough), so people could keep their advantage from having a lighter KERS etc.

But it would require a FIA KERS control/SECU, that´s the not a big problem IMHO.
It sounds a little bit "Playstation like" first time out, but as more as I think about it, as more I see merrit in the idea.

It´s less "unfair" then other things like "success ballast" or "reversed grid" IMHO.
If technical doable (maybe in 2-3 years time), I would not be surprised to see the idea tested/used in real life.
"Make the suspension adjustable and they will adjust it wrong ......
look what they can do to a carburetor in just a few moments of stupidity with a screwdriver."
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autogyro
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Re: Grid and Race position biased KERS

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I dont like it because it tends to relegate KERS to a controlled item and replaces out and out development with a spec formula that just pays lip service to technology.
Having said that, I think it could be done and would make the racing closer.

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ringo
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Re: Grid and Race position biased KERS

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I don't have a soft spot for KERS, so i didn't prioritize it when i was considering a solution to increased competition during a whole race. :mrgreen:
Paying lip service is good enough, after all KERS seems to be more established in the auto industry now more than F1. :wink:

I would say it's regulated ..it's not completely controlled. I would believe the KERS is free to be developed like any other part on the car only that it has to operate by the sporting regulations. That's not really a barrier to development. It is only asked that the KERS control unit is linked to the car's transponder and sends feedback to race control.
Each team can make its KERS as light as possible as long as it can produce the maximum power and can have varied power output.
I would say the KERS can be implemented in anyway, used at any time with complete freedom, as long as it's output is <= the position power limit.
As the conversation develops some of the technical as well as political issues can be brought to the fore.

I was wondering though, what is 1kW of KERS for 1 second worth in tenths per lap.
Knowing that would give an insight as to how closely competitive a race could be with 24 cars of varying strength.
I would imagine the winner wouldn't be decided after the first or second pit stop like it is now. Blue flags would be rare as well.
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lolzi
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Re: Grid and Race position biased KERS

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I don't like it - I don't think F1 should be some Robin Hood game with stealing from the good cars and giving to the bad ones.
How about movable aero? You are only allowed a front wing if you're in 3rd or lower. Or what about a steering angle limit? You can only turn the wheels halfway if you're in front.

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ringo
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Re: Grid and Race position biased KERS

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Why reject it so suddenly without actually giving it some thought?
Forget about the robin hood thing for a minute. Nothing like that is being proposed. Look on it objectively from the standpoint of increased competition (not just overtaking, competition as a whole).

There is no stealing from the rich teams to give to the poor going on here.
Just a disruption of the status quo.

There is no permanent handicap, all cars have to play by the same rules during a race. No team has a lasting advantage, in fact the better made cars will still have an overall edge.


This is what position biased, or should i use a less negative word :wink: , Position Dependent (PD)KERS does:

It doesn't punish any car for performing well. It does not physically handicap a fast car by added weights, to affect braking, tyre wear and fuel efficiency. Pole Position is still the most valuable on the grid.

It merely throws each driver a weapon that dulls each time he benefits from it.
The weapon is not unique to one car, 23 cars have it with varying strength.
Though that car at the back may have a weapon 2 times stronger as the car at the front, the first competitor it faces has a weapon a fraction weaker and this relative weakness is constant between any two adjacent positions. Therefore it's equally as tedious to gain a position anywhere along the ranks. Only when a fast car is at the back will it be slightly easier.


On the other hand, the further a bad car gets up the ranks, the KERS power reduces accordingly and the natural weaknesses of the car itself are gradually exposed. For example if it so happens that an HRT is running in 3rd and a redbull is in 2nd, the redbull's aero, suspension and balance advantages will out do the small KERS advantage the poor handling HRT has, since the HRT no longer has P24's 120kW, it has P3's 65kW. Naturally the HRT will have to fight harder as it moves up.

So we can see that it still pays to have a good car to win a race.

No one team can say they are being targeted for punishment by the rules. Conversely neither can one say the rules are specially benefiting them. At some point in the race, especially after pit stops, all cars will enjoy the additional KERS.
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autogyro
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Re: Grid and Race position biased KERS

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Lets have three wheels it would be the same for everyone.

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ringo
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Re: Grid and Race position biased KERS

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The idea is so good, it can only be met with
"I don't like it"
"lets have cars with 3 wheels"
"It's socialism!!!"
:lol:

Come on guys do better than that. Any non ideological reasons as to why this can't work?

The next step is to actually look at how a race progresses lap time wise with the regulation in place. I still haven't done it as yet as i'm trying to find the value of KERS lap time wise.
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747heavy
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Re: Grid and Race position biased KERS

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@ Ringo,

I regards to your question, I think it is not so easy to answer, but to start somewhere, let´s see if this makes some sense.

With the current KERS (60kW) it was mentioned, that it is worth ~0.3 sec/lap.
But this assumed (in 2009) that the car would be still at the minimum weight, and that KERS would simply mean less ballast.
(see the interview with the Renault engineer, which I posted in the other thread)

On the same token 10kg are ~0.3 sec a lap.
Therefore if the car would be more then 10kg heavier with KERS there is a net
disadvantage.

It´s worth to remember that the 60kW are only deployed for ~5 sec a lap (6.7 sec max), as the systems are not powerful enough (by the regulations) to store all the required energy for an 60kW extra for the rest of a lap (~40 )sec.
Let alone +120kw for 40 sec. which would require a 4.8MJ KERS storage capacity, able to be charged in ~12 sec.
(in the other thread we ended up with 150-185kg extra weight for such a unit, and current technology)

But let´s take the system used in 2009 (2011) and the shorter time frame, and assume it would be possible to make such a unit at the same weight, you may want to consider a advantange of 0.6 sec in overall laptime or 0.3 against the guy with a 60kw KERS.

Trying to simplify the things a little bit 0.3s/60kW = 0.005s per kW/lap so, if we use your model, the next closest car (let´s say 2nd place vs. 1st place) would have an advantage of 0.013s per lap to the car infront of him.
Not all that much, if we consider that we talk about two cars (let´s say two RBR´s), which are otherwise equal.

If we look at this years performance and take Abu Dhabi as an example.
In qualifying Vettel´s time was 1:40.318 (in Q1) vs. Trulli 1:43.516 (Q1).
(I choose to use the Q1 times for all, to have the track conditions as equal as possible, and I choose Trulli as reference to eliminate influences from lack of driving (Klien), just tried get a snapshot of car performance)

Therefor if we say, that this would be the performance difference of the different cars, it would come down to ~3.2 sec a lap.
If we take the 0.3 sec/lap for 60kW extra KERS, this difference would come down to 2.9s/lap.

I don´t think, it would make a whole lot of a difference in overall terms.
Maybe it means, being one time less often laped during the race, for the slow HRT car.
But even with your system, it is unlikely that it will turn the HRT car into a winner.
The underlying performance differential if still to large, IMHO, to make your system work as it is intented to work.

If the cars, whould be more evenly matched to start with (all drivers driving a HRT or RBR etc), the system would work much better.
Maybe your proposed system would work better in a "spec" race series, where the cars/engines are closer together, such as GP2/GP3, Indycars or V8Supercars etc.

The calcs above, are not "all that dead serious", just wanted to start somewhere. So I´m happy if someone comes and proves me wrong, or proposes a better calc - no problem at all.
Nevertheless, I still see some merit in the proposed system from an entertainment PoV, to help closer racing.
But I understand, and agree, that it is a bit artifical for the purists, and that some people will oppose such a system/proposal.

P.S.:
I´m not all that much into video games (maybe being a bit old school :-)), and at the moment, I don´t have access to a full lapsim package, but if some of you want to test the effect of the system, you may just alter the engine power according to Ringo´s proposal, and see what happens laptime wise in your video game.
After all, it maybe just evens out the percived power difference between the engines. (aka the Renault vs. Mercedes argument)
"Make the suspension adjustable and they will adjust it wrong ......
look what they can do to a carburetor in just a few moments of stupidity with a screwdriver."
- Colin Chapman

“Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication.” - Leonardo da Vinci

lolzi
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Re: Grid and Race position biased KERS

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ringo wrote:The idea is so good, it can only be met with
"I don't like it"
"lets have cars with 3 wheels"
"It's socialism!!!"
:lol:

Come on guys do better than that. Any non ideological reasons as to why this can't work?

The next step is to actually look at how a race progresses lap time wise with the regulation in place. I still haven't done it as yet as i'm trying to find the value of KERS lap time wise.
Isn't the whole basis of your idea ideological? You say "I want this because I like it" but another can't say "I don't want it because I don't like it"?
Having a lot of cars bunched up isn't exciting in itself. I don't think NASCAR restrictor-plate races are exciting. What you are proposing is to bring the cars closer together by giving some cars more power than others.

I don't think anyone ever said it wouldn't work, just that it wouldn't be to their liking.
What would you do about strategy? I think it would make a complete mess of strategy by having the leader pit of lap 2 just so he could have 20000 extra horsepower.

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ringo
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Re: Grid and Race position biased KERS

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747heavy wrote:@ Ringo,

I regards to your question, I think it is not so easy to answer, but to start somewhere, let´s see if this makes some sense.

With the current KERS (60kW) it was mentioned, that it is worth ~0.3 sec/lap.
But this assumed (in 2009) that the car would be still at the minimum weight, and that KERS would simply mean less ballast.
(see the interview with the Renault engineer, which I posted in the other thread)

On the same token 10kg are ~0.3 sec a lap.
Therefore if the car would be more then 10kg heavier with KERS there is a net
disadvantage.

It´s worth to remember that the 60kW are only deployed for ~5 sec a lap (6.7 sec max), as the systems are not powerful enough (by the regulations) to store all the required energy for an 60kW extra for the rest of a lap (~40 )sec.
Let alone +120kw for 40 sec. which would require a 4.8MJ KERS storage capacity, able to be charged in ~12 sec.
(in the other thread we ended up with 150-185kg extra weight for such a unit, and current technology)

But let´s take the system used in 2009 (2011) and the shorter time frame, and assume it would be possible to make such a unit at the same weight, you may want to consider a advantange of 0.6 sec in overall laptime or 0.3 against the guy with a 60kw KERS.

Trying to simplify the things a little bit 0.3s/60kW = 0.005s per kW/lap so, if we use your model, the next closest car (let´s say 2nd place vs. 1st place) would have an advantage of 0.013s per lap to the car infront of him.
Not all that much, if we consider that we talk about two cars (let´s say two RBR´s), which are otherwise equal.

If we look at this years performance and take Abu Dhabi as an example.
In qualifying Vettel´s time was 1:40.318 (in Q1) vs. Trulli 1:43.516 (Q1).
(I choose to use the Q1 times for all, to have the track conditions as equal as possible, and I choose Trulli as reference to eliminate influences from lack of driving (Klien), just tried get a snapshot of car performance)

Therefor if we say, that this would be the performance difference of the different cars, it would come down to ~3.2 sec a lap.
If we take the 0.3 sec/lap for 60kW extra KERS, this difference would come down to 2.9s/lap.

I don´t think, it would make a whole lot of a difference in overall terms.
Maybe it means, being one time less often laped during the race, for the slow HRT car.
But even with your system, it is unlikely that it will turn the HRT car into a winner.
The underlying performance differential if still to large, IMHO, to make your system work as it is intented to work.

If the cars, whould be more evenly matched to start with (all drivers driving a HRT or RBR etc), the system would work much better.
Maybe your proposed system would work better in a "spec" race series, where the cars/engines are closer together, such as GP2/GP3, Indycars or V8Supercars etc.

The calcs above, are not "all that dead serious", just wanted to start somewhere. So I´m happy if someone comes and proves me wrong, or proposes a better calc - no problem at all.
Nevertheless, I still see some merit in the proposed system from an entertainment PoV, to help closer racing.
But I understand, and agree, that it is a bit artifical for the purists, and that some people will oppose such a system/proposal.

P.S.:
I´m not all that much into video games (maybe being a bit old school :-)), and at the moment, I don´t have access to a full lapsim package, but if some of you want to test the effect of the system, you may just alter the engine power according to Ringo´s proposal, and see what happens laptime wise in your video game.
After all, it maybe just evens out the percived power difference between the engines. (aka the Renault vs. Mercedes argument)
Well at least we see it's not a "robin hood" system, you said 0.013s between 2 cars. That isn't as bad as some want it to look like.
One thing i would like to highlight though is that i don't expect the back markers to be as slow as they were this year. Torro Rosso would be a perfect example of where i expect backmarkers to be in terms of relative speed, since the tech regulations are basically stabilized.
The advantage of the system is that car to car there isn't much difference,but tail to head there is the 0.6s taken off what would be the normal gap. Over a race distance, that's 50*0.6, a 30s constriction in arrival time.

About the 185kg system isn't that for a 450hp KERS?, That's not what i was thinking off. I was thinking of a system capable of releasing 120kW , 160hp, in the same time as a 60kW system, not whiteblue's dream KERS.
It's a work in progress so any alterations to improve the effect are welcome. Even if it means 60kW for 12s, or twice the energy, i just want there to be a graduated difference.
I was hoping for suggestions to have a viable PD KERS.

I think this system makes a difference. It's not different to an engine advantage, though for a limited period during a lap. More power is always welcome. A little tweaking may be necessary to get the desired outcome, but i think with a lap time chart with a little algorithm we could see the effectiveness.
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ringo
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Re: Grid and Race position biased KERS

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lolzi wrote: Isn't the whole basis of your idea ideological? You say "I want this because I like it" but another can't say "I don't want it because I don't like it"?
It's not ideological. There is a problem and i proposed a common sense solution, i didn't bring any morality or ethics into it.
Having a lot of cars bunched up isn't exciting in itself. I don't think NASCAR restrictor-plate races are exciting. What you are proposing is to bring the cars closer together by giving some cars more power than others.
NASCAR is highly restricted. What i am proposing is not, it's the anti thesis to NASCAR, so it cannot be compared.
I don't think anyone ever said it wouldn't work, just that it wouldn't be to their liking.
What would you do about strategy? I think it would make a complete mess of strategy by having the leader pit of lap 2 just so he could have 20000 extra horsepower.

The cars will be bunched up of couse, but bunched up with ever reducing gaps, since the lap times between 2 cars will be constantly closing. It's not the same like we have today with a steady gap between 2 cars and one driver able to relax and cruise his way to the finish.
The only way overtaking will happen is bunching in some form or the other, and the only way competition will be increased is by reducing the gap. How do you propose it happen any other way?

Strategy wise, if it makes a mess of things, that's the teams' problem not mine. I don't have sympathy for them outside of developing the car. It's supposed to be unpredictable for us the viewers.
Why would a driver want 2000hp just to crawl back to first place? Why not stay in first and fight off the followers?



I can't help it if people don't like something they have yet to see or even grasp. They are pre judging it based on their personal beliefs, not on the actual effect of the system.
The criticism would be more valid if an example was to be posted and each person could take their time to look at it in detail.
I haven't had much free time this week, but i am hoping to make a chart of an actual race this year showing what might have been with the PD KERS. I guess a boring race like Brazil 2010 would be a good example.
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lolzi
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Re: Grid and Race position biased KERS

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But I think NASCAR and what you are proposing can be compared. NASCAR restrictor plate races are very close because the guy directly behind you has got a power/drag advantage - the exact same thing would happen here. Your proposal is just much more artificial.