McLaren MP4-27 Mercedes (pre-launch speculation)

[ell66]

As ever team knows, and McLaren have spectacularly proven for the last 2 or 3 years, the downforce calculated on the computer is no necessarily the same as that achieved on track.

Id disagree with that, Give me some examples of these "spectacular" failings....

2009 was impossible to guess where you'd end up due to the massive regulation changes.

2010 it took them 2-3 races to get the exhaust system to work, ferrari may of gotten it work straight away but other teams like merc took far longer.

and this year there development was very strong, no issues like ferrari.

[godlameroso]

The radiator airflow is easily heated by the engine, exhausts, and KERS. This results in a choked airflow which is at a higher than ambient pressure, if you could rapidly cool this air, you could maximize the flow through the chassis as this cooling would reduce the pressure and help funnel air through the chassis. It's simple temperature and pressure are related, this extra flow can be used directly on the central part of the chassis or conditioned to better interact with the rear wings.

In part the EBD worked because there was such a huge temperature difference between the air coming out of the diffuser and the exhausts.

[Richard]

Id disagree with that, Give me some examples of these "spectacular" failings.

My point was that every team claims their new car is better than the previous year. Clearly that's unrealistic and some (many?) will get it wrong. McLaren showed that most spectacularly in 09 and again in 11 when their car didn't perform on track as predicted by the design. Renault's FEE is another example.

Its not a criticism of the engineers, I'd rather more teams experimented. I was criticising the PR machine that claims improved performance from untested designs.

[beelsebob]

Id disagree with that, Give me some examples of these "spectacular" failings.

My point was that every team claims their new car is better than the previous year. Clearly that's unrealistic

Not entirely – they had an innovative, and fast design, if they have learnt sufficient amounts to make it work significantly better, it could be true. That said, it's entirely plausible (hell, probable) that it's just PR.

McLaren showed that most spectacularly in 09 and again in 11 when their car didn't perform on track as predicted by the design.

In '09, yes, in '11 not so much – it wasn't that it didn't perform, it was that it turned out to be too fragile to use, the design was also easily adapted to *still* be fast, despite lacking one of its core concepts.

Its not a criticism of the engineers, I'd rather more teams experimented. I was criticising the PR machine that claims improved performance from untested designs.

Well, tbf, they haven't claimed improved performance – they've claimed more downforce, while saying nothing about the conditions under which they get that... They might mean "the car generates more downforce when we attach a barn door to the back". I agree that it's probably just PR, lets see in testing .

[ledzep4pm]

All this special cooling talk reminds me of an idea I had over a year ago to minimise sidepod size to create a double floor (this was before torro rosso did it, and i'd never seen that ferrari before), also so the sidepods could possible generate some downforce themselves, as well as reduce drag byusing a smaller frontal area.

turning the entire sidepod bodywork into a heat exchanger by placing cooling pipes into the sidepod's bodywork allowing a reduction in radiator size. Using a composite of highly conductive metal and carbon fibre would allow a large amount of heat exchange into the surrounding colder air. I need clarification with this but I believe running hotter air over the top of the diffuser, with a double floor, would be beneficial due to the greater energy and higher pressure of the stream tubes.

It would make maintenance a little more difficult due to the piping but has potential. I don't have enough experience to know whether it is possible to reduce the sidepods enough for them to directly act as downforce generators but the doublefloor option is certainly viable. (I'd love to get a model into my uni wind tunnel but I'll be too busy with formula student).

What do you reckon?

[aleks_ader]

All this special cooling talk reminds me of an idea I had over a year ago to minimise sidepod size to create a double floor (this was before torro rosso did it, and i'd never seen that ferrari before), also so the sidepods could possible generate some downforce themselves, as well as reduce drag byusing a smaller frontal area.

turning the entire sidepod bodywork into a heat exchanger by placing cooling pipes into the sidepod's bodywork allowing a reduction in radiator size. Using a composite of highly conductive metal and carbon fibre would allow a large amount of heat exchange into the surrounding colder air. I need clarification with this but I believe running hotter air over the top of the diffuser, with a double floor, would be beneficial due to the greater energy and higher pressure of the stream tubes.

It would make maintenance a little more difficult due to the piping but has potential. I don't have enough experience to know whether it is possible to reduce the sidepods enough for them to directly act as downforce generators but the doublefloor option is certainly viable. (I'd love to get a model into my uni wind tunnel but I'll be too busy with formula student).

What do you reckon?

Steam pipes

That what you mention is forbdited and that already try one of teams in the past (i think it was brahman). FIA forited any body use in terms of cooling! They say that soert of chasis could be to unstable and to dangerous for the drivers!

[ledzep4pm]

That what you mention is forbdited and that already try one of teams in the past (i think it was brahman). FIA forited any body use in terms of cooling! They say that soert of chasis could be to unstable and to dangerous for the drivers!

Cheers, I hadn't checked it rule wise. I also would have been surprised if someone else hadn't already tried it. I'm good and coming up with other peoples ideas. I thought about EBDs in 2009!! (I started following F1 in 2008)

[aleks_ader]

Hey lads i came with one crazy idea!

I think about Peltier efect...

And what if McLaren attach on exhaoust special Peltier or more accuratly "Seebeck" units which will provide eletricity for...
http://www.madsci.org/posts/archives/20 ... .Ph.r.html

Here link Seebeck effect
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermoelec ... eck_effect


...for Peltier unit atach aside of engine to make better dissipation of heat from engine or whith other words make more efficietly cooling and smaller rads!

[beelsebob]

That what you mention is forbdited and that already try one of teams in the past (i think it was brahman). FIA forited any body use in terms of cooling! They say that soert of chasis could be to unstable and to dangerous for the drivers!

If you can find the rule in the technical regs, I'll be impressed – I certainly couldn't find it when this was brought up before.

[RAF]

Could something like this be possible?



Could the bodywork that connects the body to the sidepod be used as an extra aerofoil, maybe even create an extra diffuser effect between that and the floor?

[aleks_ader]

Could something like this be possible?



Could the bodywork that connects the body to the sidepod be used as an extra aerofoil, maybe even create an extra diffuser effect between that and the floor?

Jeah it could be, but the problem is that is not efficient, cus you lose a lot downforse on main diffuozor!

[scuderiafan]

I think that McLaren, if anything, will just smooth out the shape of the rads rather than change them.

[Owen.C93]

Yeah probably just a little more tight at the front, a longer, thinner and lower gearbox now they don't have some weird exhaust system down there. Maybe bring back the 09,10 exhaust covers which gave a bit of DF and a handy little cooling outlet allowing them a cleaner diffuser area.

[PlatinumZealot]

Anyone else noticed that Scarbs tweeted a french report that the 27 already has surpassed the downforce levels of the 26? Is this a surprise or expected?

Lies or mistranslation.

There is no way 2012 cars will have even close to the PEAK down-force of 2011. This is due to the lack of the blown diffuser and otherwise similar regulations for the rest of the car.

The "basic" downforce of the 2012 car, that is, the downforce without blown diffuser will be higher than the basic downforce of 2011

[PlatinumZealot]

Hey lads i came with one crazy idea!

I think about Peltier efect...

And what if McLaren attach on exhaoust special Peltier or more accuratly "Seebeck" units which will provide eletricity for...
http://www.madsci.org/posts/archives/20 ... .Ph.r.html

Here link Seebeck effect
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermoelec ... eck_effect


...for Peltier unit atach aside of engine to make better dissipation of heat from engine or whith other words make more efficietly cooling and smaller rads!

It would be far more efficient to use an adsorption chiller to cool the car. Whether they can make one light enough is another story