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Just a couple of egos fighting for control. One thing you might notice is how imbalanced the whole setup is. 20 GW of panels (on 12000 hectares), 40 GWh of batteries, 3 GW cable to SIN. They'll charge the batteries in less than 3 hours on a good day. Of course on a bad week during the Wet they'll need every panel's miserable output (and they'll still fail)
It appears that there was the necessary concensus going into the JV but when cost estimation and other factors increased re the 4200km high voltage direct current cable two views formed : push on for Cannon-Brookes or use the electricity to make hydrogen or its brother, ammonia, which would be exported and then used to make electricity at the destination for Forrest.
"Sun Cable wanted to supply 15 per cent of Singapore’s electricity from a 12000-hectare solar farm with a capacity of as much as 20 gigawatts located 5000 kilometres away, near Tennant Creek in the Northern Territory.
The solar would be backed up by up to 42 gigawatt-hours of energy storage, at the Powell Creek cattle station south-west of Elliott and in Darwin, which would also get electricity for the local market.
The world’s longest under-sea electricity cable is currently 720 km, carrying 1400 megawatts of electricity to the UK generated from a hydroelectric plant in Norway. About 3.4 per cent of electricity is lost on that journey.
The idea of longer underwater power cables than exist at present is not new: several are under construction or proposed, including the 1200 km EuroAsia Interconnector that will connect Israel, Cyprus and Greece by the end of 2025, and the 1200 km IceLink cable envisaged between the UK and Iceland.
After converting electricity to hydrogen, shipping it and storing it, then converting it back to electricity in a fuel cell, the delivered energy can be below 30 per cent of what was in the initial electricity input,” said the IEA in that 2019 report.
Doing so won’t be simple; hydrogen is combustible and difficult to transport and must be chilled to negative 253 degrees if it is to be transported in liquid form. This is similar to natural gas, which is liquified for easier storage and transportation at negative 162 degrees."
Along with hydrogen embrittlement of the apparatus.
Then there is sovereign risk to the cable.
The price setting method will possibly be decisive: contract or markets.
Danger from transporting hydrogen or ammonia.
Last edited by johnny comelately on 23 Jan 2023, 07:50, edited 1 time in total.
Just compressing the H2 takes about 1/6 of its calorific value. Now, if your power is (a) free and (b) wouldn't be used anyway then that makes some sense. You also have a freezing problem with your equipment at the other end, but I imagine Singapore would be a ready market for piped cold water.
Headline figure 120 TWh of storage, or 36 kWh per capita. Most of that is hydrogen (!?)
Power is generated via 1971 GW of onshore wind 64 GW of offshore wind 3052 GW of solar 99 GW of nuclear (it assumes no new nuclear) and 152 GW of hydro. This generates an average of 481 GW. This means the storage needs to be 250 hours, which is rather more than I estimated for the UK (60 hours).
So per GW of baseload, they say 5 GW of onshore wind, no offshore wind, 6 GW of solar and 250 GWh of storage. I estimate for the UK 8 GW of onshore wind, no offshore wind, 4GW of solar, and 60 GWh of storage. So they are (even) more pessimistic than me. Bear in mind they used different tech costs to me as well as different weather and demand.
reminding myself of 2 recent discoveries (re wood burning being the biggest source of UK atmospheric particulate) .....
the UK gets only 12.8% of its Pm2.5 from road traffic - and 15% from pollen
here's a paper on pollen deaths https://academic.oup.com/eurpub/article ... 22/6210642
how will the trillions of trees planted to absorb carbon be de-pollenised ?
Drax (now all wood-burning) seems to have as much fly-ash as it did when all coal-burning
several trains daily each taking hundreds of tons of fly-ash for cement-making (also brick-making ?)
silicates - presumably the trees chemically ingest this from the soil and associated bedrock
Drax hasn't got backing for capturing and storing CO2 from wood-burning
Last edited by Tommy Cookers on 23 Apr 2023, 13:32, edited 2 times in total.
yes I have seen interesting stuff on Youtube about restart difficulties in Texas etc
having to take large mobile generators into the field to inject directly at some points
another ten years gone and the UK stumbles on .....
the % of 'good' electricity is now close to the % of 'bad' (ignoring nuclear, wood, imports, exports, and non-public)
the 2020 % was particularly optimistic due to Covid shutdown and very pro-renewables weather
(the % makes our Hitachi 800 trains as carbon-emissive when all-electric as when diesel-electric - but 25 mph faster
Maybach-type small 90 deg V12s underfloor
of course 3rd rail electric systems worldwide (and trams) due to the huge conductor losses are far worse than diesel)
as in the previous decade we have a home-made aim 'COP 26 'Johnson promise' (net 0% bad electricity by 2035)
NB the % of 'good' all-energy has been quite close to the % of 'bad' - despite the % of 'all-energy' is used for heating
(because the baked-in switch from coal to gas has a long shadow back to 1990)
net 0% bad all-energy by 2050 is the established UK promise to the world
the UK CCC has reported 44% reduction so far - and says the 68% aim by 2035 will be missed
we're far behind on insulation, heat pumps, EV chargers etc etc etc
billions of customer money annually is now being paid to the renewables - literally to switch off generation ...
because National Grid can't deliver more electricity over more distance
(we burned coal for electricity this summer as the aircons couldn't get it in the way planned ny the grid)
NG now says tens of billions needed to increase grid capacity for present commitments (& total 350 billion by 2050)
OfGem says law must give grid access to proceedable, those not delayed by the many upcoming planning battles etc
we want renewable electricity to make green hydrogen - eg added (20%) to methane for heating via existing grid
net zero 2050 needs England to have 50 GW wind (and Scotland 60 GW)
England has shallow sea & offshore wind is treble the cost of onshore - Scotland's (deeper) floating turbines ten times
plus 100-200 billion is needed to rework Scotland's facilities for construction of floating turbines
plus Scotland will on a large scale export eg via cables and (hydrogen pipelines)
oh ... another half-a-trillion for small modular reactors
(and RR to be given German taxes - to advance design of small gas turbines for generation)
but UK national debt is potentially catastrophic - so the lack of coherent plans doesn't matter
prices are rocketing - and eg Siemens Ganesan and others have big issues with manufacturing quality
because of the bad image of flaring lots of unwanted methane Turkmenistan is now releasing this unburned
negating eg all the present UK carbon reduction (methane being far worse than CO2)
the USA might induce T to remedy the situation
New Zealand says it's replacing its carbon-based steelmaking by melting steel with renewable electricity
actually NZ's just exporting carbon emission - by importing from iron-smelting done overseas
iron comes from chemical reduction of iron ore - this needing carbon (bad) or hydrogen (good))
it cannot come by being 'melted-out' - (though this and potty official NZ school material that says it can)
recently there was an EU report highlighting the dumping of waste heat ....
then 3 newspaper articles (written by women who all thought that waste heat is caused by buying too much heat)
S.T.E.M subjects anyone ?
this week I proved - official survey said 82% fossil fuel (primary energy) & 'news' wrote '82% fossil fuel generation'
that everybody hears what they expect to hear and that's what the papers write - by chance or design - no-one cares !
btw 1 ...
bio-ethanol eg US corn seems to have zero carbon benefit due to carbon released from cultivating unused ground
presumably then climate change was caused by the whole world (not just by the industrial countries)
btw 2 ....
didn't the industrial countries export 95% of their production ? - so wasn't the whole world responsible for CC ?
Last edited by Tommy Cookers on 05 Jul 2023, 22:47, edited 8 times in total.
...
gas people want renewable electricity to make green hydrogen - added (20%) to methane for heating via existing grid
I had read in the past,from Germany, that the current natural gas piping (methane) would be ready to accept up to 2% H2 in the mix.
Is this 20% a typo, or maybe piping and seal standards in the UK are more stringent? Even end appliances have to just "accept" this 20%.
If 20% is OK, there is A LOT of H2 storage capacity in the current natural gas networks.
they tried 'up to 20%' last year in c.700 houses in Gateshead, England
and are right now issuing documents for trials this year at 100% ('Hydrogen Village Trial')
and the same possibly in Fife, Scotland
of course the addition of hydrogen reduces the calorific value by fuel volume (unless pressures are much increased)
also yes the many opposing hydrogen argue on leakage grounds
and of course increased hydrogen in the atmosphere would increase some existing pollutants (NOx ?)
but hydrogen (or hydrogen blending) is cheaper and less disruptive the house owner
(compared with electric heat pumps)
especially with the present cost-of-living crisis
with our fine UK industry supplying compressed hydrogen to our homes - surely there can't be any problems ?
Any obvious single.point failure of the idea of using the Boring Company to just make large compounds 2000 feet underground, and housing nuclear reactors in them?
I haven't been following the UK H2 story in any detail, where are they getting the H2 from?
the upcoming trial H100 Fife Project by Scottish Gas Networks will make theirs by electrolysis at Energy Park Fife https://www.h100fife.co.uk
there is a UK Hydrogen Strategy
but today's rumour is that there will not be the seemingly necessary universal public levy
the Scottish Government expects all new buildings from April 2024 to be heated only by zero-emission heating systems
I haven't been following the UK H2 story in any detail, where are they getting the H2 from?
the upcoming trial H100 Fife Project by Scottish Gas Networks will make theirs by electrolysis at Energy Park Fife https://www.h100fife.co.uk
there is a UK Hydrogen Strategy
but today's rumour is that there will not be the seemingly necessary universal public levy
the Scottish Government expects all new buildings from April 2024 to be heated only by zero-emission heating systems
Can I just pop this link in for interest.
(
Just skip to 5 min
When arguing with a fool, be sure the other person is not doing the same thing.
