2015 Mexican Grand Prix - Mexico City, Oct 30 - Nov 1

[sgth0mas]

The point is, you are to keep your self on track.

It's up to the stewards to decide if extenuating circumstances make it ok for you to leave the track.

Youre absolutely right.

And my point is...let's not act like vettel is the only one who ever breaks track limit rules...

[sgth0mas]

Not all drivers have kept themselves on track. I forget the race it happened in this year but one of the Mercs were all over the place after a puncture. Its a wild assumption that all drivers slowly limp back within track boundaries except vettel.

If you read my previous comments, I have never claimed all drivers did so:

In principle he could have gotten a penalty for it. Other drivers always have kept themselves on the track when very slowly limping back to the pits. Vettel probably counted on mercy and reason from the stewards. He did got it, but I don't feel it's right to count on mercy.

Big difference .

Underline always and reread your post. Then detail that big difference.

Always is a very tall order for any racing driver...

[Jonnycraig]

In principle he could have gotten a penalty for it. Other drivers always have kept themselves on the track when very slowly limping back to the pits. Vettel probably counted on mercy and reason from the stewards. He did got it, but I don't feel it's right to count on mercy.

Other drivers have kept themselves on track, and plenty of others have cut corners. The difference of course is that usually when a car limps back to the pits, there is nobody else on track behind them keeping a track of their progress.

It as only investigated in this instance as Alonso, who was even slower with a failed engine and so trundling in behind Vettel reported a man he rather openly dislikes to the stewards, claiming he was driving very dangerously in cutting across the stadium section. Dangerous to whom, with Alonso some 10+ seconds behind him is rather questionable.

As it was, the stewards decided that Vettel had done nothing wrong.

I also don't see how it is relevant he did not finish the race. At that point there was nothing contributing to him crashing into the barriers, so it's not a point of consideration.

He was investigated for gaining an advantage. It's difficult to argue that he gained any sort of advantage in a race he didn't finish. Especially when the only advantage would have been being 'only' 50 seconds off the pack, rather than a minute.

But ok, it seems reasonable that he tried to cut away a bit from a devastating disadvantage. However, I hope they adjust the rules and protocols for it. They did so last time in 2012, when he cut all the corners at the Indian GP during the outlap in qualifying.

In order to enforce any new rule, you would need the stewards to sit and watch back the inlap of any driver suffering a puncture as a matter of procedure, which seems ludicrous to my mind. If a driver making their way back to the pits impedes another driver, then fair enough investigate.

[turbof1]

He was investigated for gaining an advantage. It's difficult to argue that he gained any sort of advantage in a race he didn't finish. Especially when the only advantage would have been being 'only' 50 seconds off the pack, rather than a minute.

That does not/should not matter. If you violate a rule, even if bad luck or a mistake undoes it later in the race, you should take punishment for it. I'm not claiming per se that Vettel should be punished in this case, but as a general thumb of rule, events not related to the relevant event should not have any impact on decision making process.

Note that I'm fairly strict about corner cutting: you almost always get an advantage out of it and should be reserved only if not doing it will compromise safety for others or yourself.

In order to enforce any new rule, you would need the stewards to sit and watch back the inlap of any driver suffering a puncture as a matter of procedure, which seems ludicrous to my mind. If a driver making their way back to the pits impedes another driver, then fair enough investigate.

They do that already, mate. I have been in a stewards room during a race, not a F1 race, but a blancpain race. Last year at the circuit of Zolder. They had 12 people monitoring 30+ screens in front of them. Every small thing that was odd get winded back and replayed inmediately. They were doing this constantly. One even did it as an example how their procedures worked. These are very, very productive people with a huge load of responsibility. They check every bit. Yes even corner cutting no matter of it was permitted or not.

Off topic, but that was the most fantastic interview I ever did. I had the head of circuit safety to do my interview with, while they were monitoring and controlling the race. Unbelievable experience; the men and women there are true hero's who nobody sees.

[basti313]

Well, but nevertheless they may not be able to rule this. I did not see the lap or the cutting from Vettel, so hard to judge. I saw Rosberg going straight through turn 6 in Hungary. It is really not possible to judge it as a usual fault or deliberately going straight.
The only thing that would make sense is a rule to stop punctured cars. Because the bigger problem is debris like we saw with Hamilton Spa 14. He harmed several other cars (Mas, Ros...) by putting his tires debris all over the track. And if I recall it correctly the punctured car is mostly not finishing in the points.

[djos]

I would say that incident was more Ricciardo that it was Vettel, it was more than optimistic, but it was ultimately a racing incident at the start of the race.

Ricciardo was half way down the inside at the apex of the corner when Vettel came across at him, if it wasn't a 1st corner incident Vettel would have been pinged for it.

Vettel pulled the exact same move later in the race on one of the TR boys (i forget which) and was left racing room. It was even noted by the commentary team.

It came from quite far back, as most Ricciardo moves usually do, you can't surely claim Ricciardo was completely innocent? I don't think it's fair to claim Vettel purposefully closed the door, you can see he tries to open up as soon as he spots Ricciardo.

You know it's possible both drivers can be blamed for an incident, it's not always soley 1 persons fault, and it's not always done on purpose or with malicious intent.

Dan was virtually on Seb's gearbox, how much closer does he need to be??? Seb came from several car lengths back to make his move!

PS I never said it was malicious, Seb just didnt pay enough attention to were Dan was on the track.

[djos]

Had it not been a first corner incident, Vettel would have got done for avoidable contact due to not leaving racing room.

Ricciardo was half way down the inside at the apex of the corner when Vettel came across at him, if it wasn't a 1st corner incident Vettel would have been pinged for it.

The irony being Ricciardo avoided a DT because it was the first corner.

Ah more comedy from our resident Danny Ric hater!

The evidence speaks for itself:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/gku9dafewt7ne ... 7.png?dl=0

Danny Ric was 2/3rds down the inside 2 car lengths before the apex, the accident is Seb's fault for not leaving room.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/o43x3rifu2fbx ... 6.png?dl=0

[NathanOlder]

Yeah Vettels mistake 100%. He early had eyes on Kvyat to try and pass into 2-3. Easily done, but no excuse.

[WaikeCU]

The Raikkonen and Bottas incident is a carbon copy of this:



I guess this is the combination of tight chicanes and both drivers not yielding an inch.

[ian_s]

vettel was on the far left of the track, and cut straight across to try and hit the apex on the right.
while vettel was on the curb on the left, ricciardo already had an overlap.

it seems to be simple common sense that you don't try to take the racing line through the first corner, you always leave some space. every other driver left enough space there.
if Vettel had got through that without a puncture, i'm sure he would have been given a penalty. as it is, the puncture was penalty enough

[Vasconia]

Both cars have a great advantage so it was very logic to change the tyres in order to avoid any problem at the end of the race(and a probably safety car, which it did happen). With the same strategy it was in Hamilton´s hands to attack Nico but he couldnt. He always reacts like a child complaining and demanding additional info when its clear why they were changing the tyres because its not the first time.

I heard lot of drivers complaining about tire strategies. I heard Rosberg yelling back at his engineer, I heard drivers trying to pin their flat tires on others. Interestingly enough, had Hamilton stayed out a few more laps as he wanted to and come back in for softs to finish the race, the Safety car would have given him the victory. He had a win taken away from him in Monaco; Checo went 40 some odd laps one the mediums. It's the responsibility of a champion driver to question.

Things sometimes go a different way, accept it and move on. Why focus so much of your energy into wishing things were different?

You can apply this to Lewis, not to me. Sometimes Hamilton seems to be untouchable for some users.

Checo is amazing when its about tyre managing. And its quite clear that the soft didnt work very well for some drivers. We dont know what it could have happened.

Hope that Pirelli brings the sufer soft tyres next year!

[iotar__]

vettel was on the far left of the track, and cut straight across to try and hit the apex on the right.
while vettel was on the curb on the left, ricciardo already had an overlap.

it seems to be simple common sense that you don't try to take the racing line through the first corner, you always leave some space. every other driver left enough space there.
if Vettel had got through that without a puncture, i'm sure he would have been given a penalty. as it is, the puncture was penalty enough

After replays I changed my mind, Vettel did a bit of Hulkenberg Singapore, not the same since he was earlier and on the better line but still. It wasn't good line-speed combination from Ricciardo either, see Massa - Bottas behind, IMO more his fault so I disagree about any penalties for Vettel this but time stewards were right not to touch it.

Don't even start me with Hamilton, I will leave it at that: I'd be ashamed if I were his supporter. Out-qualified four times in a row, won Russia only because of Rosberg bizarre car problems, Japan only because of car problems and getting away with dirty driving, USA - dirty driving, two safety cars after getting outpaced (10 seconds behind after 20 something laps) and yes Rosberg's mistake, championship on a silver plate for free through decision making and remarkable reliability and now he forgets all that and questions very simple race where he was outpaced every second of the weekend ?

If you don't think USA and Japan were dirty re-watch Magnussen vs Alonso/Bottas, Spa/Monza '14, 20 s = full drive-through and 5 s for less (not the best attempts) in comparison to no investigation for pushing off twice on purpose - Japan less than 50/50 and USA LH was in front anyway and did it only to send NR off track, that was not position defending

[i70q7m7ghw]

Don't even start me with Hamilton, I will leave it at that: I'd be ashamed if I were his supporter. Out-qualified four times in a row, won Russia only because of Rosberg bizarre car problems, Japan only because of car problems and getting away with dirty driving, USA - dirty driving, two safety cars after getting outpaced (10 seconds behind after 20 something laps) and yes Rosberg's mistake, championship on a silver plate for free through decision making and remarkable reliability and now he forgets all that and questions very simple race where he was outpaced every second of the weekend ?

But you wan't to completely disregard all the weekends where he's completely outpaced Rosberg? Because they had no bearing on the championship what so ever? Monza for example, completely flawless and in a class of one. Monaco, also totally flawless, gifted to Rosberg by a team error. So many races this year and last year where Hamilton has just cruised up to Rosberg and driven past him.

You might have a point about Hamilton's recent performances, and him benefiting from Rosberg's bad luck, but you don't win a championship by such a large margin by accident. And you certainly don't win 3 of them by accident.

[alexx_88]

Just to quickly point out Monza out of the list. It can't be on the 'list'. On the most power-dependent circuit of the calendar, Rosberg ran the whole weekend (minus FP1 iirc) with a significant engine handicap. Since Mercedes is in a class of its own, dominating when you don't have any opponent in at least similar machinery is a no-brainer. And yes, it seems that Hamilton took it a just a bit easier in the second part of the season. I am no fan of his, but the championship was pretty much done and dusted. We saw last year how he battled it out.

In any case, although his talent is indisputable, I seriously question his education and emotional intelligence. The way he creates useless controversy and bad vibe around himself out of absolutely nothing is mind boggling. The cap incident with Rosberg, the interview regarding Michael, the things he said about how Mercedes 'warmed up' towards Robserg. What was the point of all that? He was out-paced all weekend in Mexico, why can't he just accept it was down to him and move on?

[SiLo]

Just to quickly point out Monza out of the list. It can't be on the 'list'. On the most power-dependent circuit of the calendar, Rosberg ran the whole weekend (minus FP1 iirc) with a significant engine handicap. Since Mercedes is in a class of its own, dominating when you don't have any opponent in at least similar machinery is a no-brainer. And yes, it seems that Hamilton took it a just a bit easier in the second part of the season. I am no fan of his, but the championship was pretty much done and dusted. We saw last year how he battled it out.

In any case, although his talent is indisputable, I seriously question his education and emotional intelligence. The way he creates useless controversy and bad vibe around himself out of absolutely nothing is mind boggling. The cap incident with Rosberg, the interview regarding Michael, the things he said about how Mercedes 'warmed up' towards Robserg. What was the point of all that? He was out-paced all weekend in Mexico, why can't he just accept it was down to him and move on?

For some reason I can understand this, and it's to do with simply not admitting to yourself that you were beaten. It helps keep your mentality up. If you start to think 'he was just better than me' its not really great for your mentality.