2016 European Grand Prix - Baku City Circuit, Fri 17 – Sun 19 Jun

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FrukostScones
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Re: 2016 European Grand Prix - Baku City Circuit, Fri 17 – Sun 19 Jun

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Fulcrum wrote:
j2004p wrote:
Fulcrum wrote:Sorry, that's not an argument that holds much water with me. That's actually part of my point. Placing kerbs on this track where they have effectively neuters it.

Why do the drivers need to have 'something' to 'negotiate' with?

You've stated it yourself. Without kerbs the balancing act is negotiating the wall, which seems a much better application of skill than 'negotiating' an arbitrary point like a kerb.

As such, removing the kerbs would place a much higher emphasis on the driver than the car.
OK, maybe I'm missing something and if I am I apologise, but what would you prefer instead of a kerb?

A wall or a white line with identical flat tarmac to the main track on the inside of the white line?
In essence, yes, or very nearly. There are plenty of turns on this very track where the kerb literally hugs the wall. Examples being, turns 1, 3, 5, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14.

Turns 2, 4, 6, 7, 8, 15, 16 all create artificial apexes and I don't see the point of this when the track is physically bound by concrete blocks. The safety argument, slowing cars down with strategic kerb placement, doesn't correlate because the kerbs are tight on entry to T1, T12, T13, T14, all with high approach speeds or high apex speeds.

I don't see how the kerbs here can even be motivated as safety features at all. They're raised, destabilise the car, and are likely to cause more accidents than they 'prevent' from an errant driver getting too close to the wall. What's more, they're extremely dangerous in the wet - not that important here as it doesn't rain much.

The approach to turn 15 is actually made more dangerous by the completely idiotic kerb placement on the outside of the track in the approach.

To summarise, my general argument is that the placement of the kerbs creates for a far worse layout than could be experienced were they placed consistently close to the walls throughout, the best examples being T15 and T16. Both of these corners have been 'sanitised' in a manner that detracts from the circuits potential.
T15 made more dangereous by the curb design yet sanitized by it. Can't follow your logic there. If you mean it was more "true" withour" that curb, I agree, but it would be much much fatser without it and much more dangerous... and especially the run off would be worthless.
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notsofast
notsofast
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Re: 2016 European Grand Prix - Baku City Circuit, Fri 17 – Sun 19 Jun

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FrukostScones wrote:...the curb ... without it ... the run off would be worthless.
Is that the clue we're looking for? Perhaps the curbs force the racing line toward the runoff area? I don't like the curbs either, but with such limited runoff, perhaps the intent is to increase the probability that a driver will go off into the runoff instead of into the wall when they make a mistake.

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Shrieker
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Re: 2016 European Grand Prix - Baku City Circuit, Fri 17 – Sun 19 Jun

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Juzh wrote:Hamilton full lap onboard:

https://streamable.com/n6az
Crazy track, i loved watching that !

There are some short but sharp corners in the 3rd sector, taken at over 270, 290 and 300 respectively. Something happens in those places and there ll be a huge crash !

I don t like the kerb placement at some of the corners. In like 3 of them, if a car hits a problem under braking on corner entry, their trajectory will point towards a car exiting the corner and it's potentially extremely dangerous.
Last edited by Shrieker on 18 Jun 2016, 01:05, edited 1 time in total.
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SR71
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Re: 2016 European Grand Prix - Baku City Circuit, Fri 17 – Sun 19 Jun

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some curbs are being removed before the GP2 race tomorrow. cant people handle this is a new track and will evolve?

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SR71
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Re: 2016 European Grand Prix - Baku City Circuit, Fri 17 – Sun 19 Jun

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notsofast wrote:
FrukostScones wrote:...the curb ... without it ... the run off would be worthless.
Is that the clue we're looking for? Perhaps the curbs force the racing line toward the runoff area? I don't like the curbs either, but with such limited runoff, perhaps the intent is to increase the probability that a driver will go off into the runoff instead of into the wall when they make a mistake.
Exactly, Ted Kravitz explained months ago that T15 was designed to slow cars down and provide a run off area. They are approaching at over 300kph and could take the 'natural' line of T15 at close to that.

You cannot sanitize a new circuit by the way.

Powy
Powy
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Re: 2016 European Grand Prix - Baku City Circuit, Fri 17 – Sun 19 Jun

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- Curbs in turns 6 and 12 are being removed (via RTL instagram).
- The pitlane entrance is narrower due to drivers' wish: https://twitter.com/kaiebel/status/743892381808852992

NYGIANTS
NYGIANTS
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Re: 2016 European Grand Prix - Baku City Circuit, Fri 17 – Sun 19 Jun

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Juzh wrote:Hamilton full lap onboard:

https://streamable.com/n6az
big huge thank you! =D>

been looking for full lap onboards all day.

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PlatinumZealot
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Joined: 12 Jun 2008, 03:45

Re: 2016 European Grand Prix - Baku City Circuit, Fri 17 – Sun 19 Jun

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Powy wrote:- Curbs in turns 6 and 12 are being removed (via RTL instagram).
- The pitlane entrance is narrower due to drivers' wish:
https://twitter.com/kaiebel/status/743892381808852992
Oh for a while there I was like how is he making it narrower? And then I saw the black line.
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Sonador
Sonador
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Joined: 06 May 2016, 17:26

Re: 2016 European Grand Prix - Baku City Circuit, Fri 17 – Sun 19 Jun

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Powy wrote:- Curbs in turns 6 and 12 are being removed (via RTL instagram).
- The pitlane entrance is narrower due to drivers' wish:
https://twitter.com/kaiebel/status/743892381808852992
You mean pit exit?

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dans79
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Joined: 03 Mar 2013, 19:33
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Re: 2016 European Grand Prix - Baku City Circuit, Fri 17 – Sun 19 Jun

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They are changing pit entrance and exit!
201 105 104 9 9 7

Fulcrum
Fulcrum
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Re: 2016 European Grand Prix - Baku City Circuit, Fri 17 – Sun 19 Jun

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FrukostScones wrote:
Fulcrum wrote:
j2004p wrote:
OK, maybe I'm missing something and if I am I apologise, but what would you prefer instead of a kerb?

A wall or a white line with identical flat tarmac to the main track on the inside of the white line?
In essence, yes, or very nearly. There are plenty of turns on this very track where the kerb literally hugs the wall. Examples being, turns 1, 3, 5, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14.

Turns 2, 4, 6, 7, 8, 15, 16 all create artificial apexes and I don't see the point of this when the track is physically bound by concrete blocks. The safety argument, slowing cars down with strategic kerb placement, doesn't correlate because the kerbs are tight on entry to T1, T12, T13, T14, all with high approach speeds or high apex speeds.

I don't see how the kerbs here can even be motivated as safety features at all. They're raised, destabilise the car, and are likely to cause more accidents than they 'prevent' from an errant driver getting too close to the wall. What's more, they're extremely dangerous in the wet - not that important here as it doesn't rain much.

The approach to turn 15 is actually made more dangerous by the completely idiotic kerb placement on the outside of the track in the approach.

To summarise, my general argument is that the placement of the kerbs creates for a far worse layout than could be experienced were they placed consistently close to the walls throughout, the best examples being T15 and T16. Both of these corners have been 'sanitised' in a manner that detracts from the circuits potential.
T15 made more dangereous by the curb design yet sanitized by it. Can't follow your logic there. If you mean it was more "true" withour" that curb, I agree, but it would be much much fatser without it and much more dangerous... and especially the run off would be worthless.
Either you haven't read my post fully, or you missed the part where I mentioned its the kerb placement on the outside in the approach that is dangerous.

Here's a picture.

Image

I can see a moment where cars approach the apex side-by-side, one gets forced over this kerb, loses traction as a result and has a big off. The track would be safer without it.

The kerb at the apex is the part I refer to as 'sanitized'.

Fulcrum
Fulcrum
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Joined: 25 Aug 2014, 18:05

Re: 2016 European Grand Prix - Baku City Circuit, Fri 17 – Sun 19 Jun

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Chuckjr wrote:
Fulcrum wrote:
j2004p wrote:
OK, maybe I'm missing something and if I am I apologise, but what would you prefer instead of a kerb?

A wall or a white line with identical flat tarmac to the main track on the inside of the white line?
In essence, yes, or very nearly. There are plenty of turns on this very track where the kerb literally hugs the wall. Examples being, turns 1, 3, 5, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14.

Turns 2, 4, 6, 7, 8, 15, 16 all create artificial apexes and I don't see the point of this when the track is physically bound by concrete blocks. The safety argument, slowing cars down with strategic kerb placement, doesn't correlate because the kerbs are tight on entry to T1, T12, T13, T14, all with high approach speeds or high apex speeds.

I don't see how the kerbs here can even be motivated as safety features at all. They're raised, destabilise the car, and are likely to cause more accidents than they 'prevent' from an errant driver getting too close to the wall. What's more, they're extremely dangerous in the wet - not that important here as it doesn't rain much.

The approach to turn 15 is actually made more dangerous by the completely idiotic kerb placement on the outside of the track in the approach.

To summarise, my general argument is that the placement of the kerbs creates for a far worse layout than could be experienced were they placed consistently close to the walls throughout, the best examples being T15 and T16. Both of these corners have been 'sanitised' in a manner that detracts from the circuits potential.
I agree with your argument 100%.

IMO they have done it to impotize the track and remove a driver error from being a retirement. The idea is to have as many cars on track running at all times. This is a show and business before it is a competition. The idea of risk and terminal mistakes are no longer on the table for discussion.

They also did it to slow the corners down and force -possibly- more passing opportunities. As Button said its a lot like Canada, 90 degree turns followed by long straights.

Sterilizing the tracks and ensuring cars are always running as much as possible is the whole idea now. Tradition, history, driver skill, these are all secondary or non concerns.

Funny how quickly drivers forget how bad domination is to the sport. Oh the irony!!

http://metro.co.uk/2013/10/07/lewis-ham ... t-4136945/
Thanks. I can tell my opinions on this subject are not popular amongst some members of this forum, but I feel the arguments made in favour of some of the kerbs are a bit hypocritical given their placement at other points on this track.

The thing I particularly don't understand relates to how Turn 15 and Turn 16 have been treated in relation to Turn 13 and Turn 14.

Turn 14 is taken at 300, there is no run-off on the exit, and no depth to the barrier. If you have an off here you're in the wall hard and without much impact protection.

Compare that with Turn 15. Much better barrier protection, run-off, and additional width if there were no kerb.

Image

What could have been an amazing test of driver skill has been turned into a basic 90 degree left hander, something this track had plenty of already.

I wouldn't be surprised if T15 and T16 in particular have less to do with safety than simply to allow for some KERS storage prior to the long straight.

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Chuckjr
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Joined: 24 Feb 2012, 08:34
Location: USA

Re: 2016 European Grand Prix - Baku City Circuit, Fri 17 – Sun 19 Jun

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Fulcrum wrote:I wouldn't be surprised if T15 and T16 in particular have less to do with safety than simply to allow for some KERS storage prior to the long straight.
That's a really good point. I hadn't even thought of that.
Watching F1 since 1986.

Fulcrum
Fulcrum
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Joined: 25 Aug 2014, 18:05

Re: 2016 European Grand Prix - Baku City Circuit, Fri 17 – Sun 19 Jun

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Chuckjr wrote:
Fulcrum wrote:I wouldn't be surprised if T15 and T16 in particular have less to do with safety than simply to allow for some KERS storage prior to the long straight.
That's a really good point. I hadn't even thought of that.
Someone else has similar thoughts about the kerbs.

Image

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Juzh
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Joined: 06 Oct 2012, 08:45

Re: 2016 European Grand Prix - Baku City Circuit, Fri 17 – Sun 19 Jun

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Powy wrote:- Curbs in turns 6 and 12 are being removed (via RTL instagram).
- The pitlane entrance is narrower due to drivers' wish:
https://twitter.com/kaiebel/status/743892381808852992
What exactly is wrong in T12? And T6 for that matter? They're fairly slow speed so it can't be safety.