2016 Japanese Grand Prix - Suzuka, 07-09 October

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: 2016 Japanese Grand Prix - Suzuka, 07-09 October

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flynfrog wrote:I used to race Quad MX. We did a standing gate start. So all machines lined up in one row across the track. The gate drops and its a drag race to the first corner. It look like this
http://www.atvriders.com/atvracing/ama- ... ot-492.jpg

If you didn't get hole shot (first to the corner) the first corner looked something like this

http://www.atvriders.com/atvracing/ama- ... reck-2.jpg
http://www.atvriders.com/atvracing/ama- ... reck-1.jpg

Even if you made it through the first corner the tracks were on dirt with one racing line and pretty equal machines making it very hard to pass (sound familiar)

http://www.atvriders.com/atvracing/ama- ... leshot.jpg

So we treated the start as the most important part of the race. We adjusted the porting (this is in the olden days before race engines had valves and sounded like tractors) the pipes and the gear ratios for the start of the race. Just because it was a small percentage of the race didn't mean it wasn't important.

These were peaky 2 strokes with multi plate clutches and stiff springs with light flywheels. Very easy to bog or spin the tires.


I ask the question if the few meters before the start are not important then are the few meters before the finish? What few meters of the race should count the most.
But if the result of the race was so much dependent on starts those races must have been very boring with the guy with the faster quad streaking away into the sunset.
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basti313
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Re: 2016 Japanese Grand Prix - Suzuka, 07-09 October

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Phil wrote:..........Given how much ahead the Mercedes is relative to the other teams, we should have had all the great ingredients for a spectacular fight between these two. More races like Bahrain '14. Yet, this year, we haven't had a single one and a large part of that has been due to the starts [of the Mercedes] that happen to be quite erratic. .......
Not really. First point: Bad starts were not the number one problem they are a problem, but failed machinery and all sorts of pushing off track or crash incidents were more severe.
Second point: Even without bad starts we would not see competition like Bahrein 14 this season. RedBull or Ferrari are to close to allow for a battle between the Mercs and the current tires and cooling setup do not allow for more than a few laps driving close.
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flynfrog
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Re: 2016 Japanese Grand Prix - Suzuka, 07-09 October

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PlatinumZealot wrote:
But if the result of the race was so much dependent on starts those races must have been very boring with the guy with the faster quad streaking away into the sunset.
Usually the better rider on the better machine won its generally how racing works.

zac510
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Re: 2016 Japanese Grand Prix - Suzuka, 07-09 October

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Were the quad bike forums awash with spectators complaining about it?

Fulcrum
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Re: 2016 Japanese Grand Prix - Suzuka, 07-09 October

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When has there ever been a time in F1, or any other racing series with races of short duration and difficulty overtaking, where the start wasn't the most important component of the race? It is the only point in the race with both minimum field spread, and maximum performance differential (i.e. mistakes, poor execution, technical issues, poor warm-up technique, accidents). I.e. variance.

It sounds like what some people really want is rolling starts that ensure qualifying positions are preserved into the first corner; then we would watch the field spread out with virtually no passing throughout the race. Moreover, the complaint is that the start plays too much of a role in the outcome, and the charge is that luck deprives us of competition, that luck is unfair, and removing this element of racing would give us a 'true' contest. All of which are the complete antithesis of sport in general.

If you legislate away variance in the start, then you could argue that qualifying plays too large a role in the outcome. Considering qualifying is far less prone to significant random events, as it is measured over an hour, not tenths of a second, you simply won't observe much variation in grid order, and therefore finishing order.

As for the conjecture of the starts being too determined by luck. That's a very convenient catch-all statement you can use to rationalise outcomes you don't like, and it undermines those drivers who - probabilistically - perform better in this discipline.

I feel the current starting legislation is fair. It requires driver involvement, i.e. skill, to maximise the chance of a good outcome. Get it wrong, even slightly, and you lose out. The fact that the margin of error is small shouldn't detract from the ability to get it right.

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RedNEO
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Re: 2016 Japanese Grand Prix - Suzuka, 07-09 October

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Fulcrum wrote:When has there ever been a time in F1, or any other racing series with races of short duration and difficulty overtaking, where the start wasn't the most important component of the race? It is the only point in the race with both minimum field spread, and maximum performance differential (i.e. mistakes, poor execution, technical issues, poor warm-up technique, accidents). I.e. variance.

It sounds like what some people really want is rolling starts that ensure qualifying positions are preserved into the first corner; then we would watch the field spread out with virtually no passing throughout the race. Moreover, the complaint is that the start plays too much of a role in the outcome, and the charge is that luck deprives us of competition, that luck is unfair, and removing this element of racing would give us a 'true' contest. All of which are the complete antithesis of sport in general.

If you legislate away variance in the start, then you could argue that qualifying plays too large a role in the outcome. Considering qualifying is far less prone to significant random events, as it is measured over an hour, not tenths of a second, you simply won't observe much variation in grid order, and therefore finishing order.

As for the conjecture of the starts being too determined by luck. That's a very convenient catch-all statement you can use to rationalise outcomes you don't like, and it undermines those drivers who - probabilistically - perform better in this discipline.

I feel the current starting legislation is fair. It requires driver involvement, i.e. skill, to maximise the chance of a good outcome. Get it wrong, even slightly, and you lose out. The fact that the margin of error is small shouldn't detract from the ability to get it right.
Fully agree, great post. By putting the control back into the drivers hands and not having it be done by some computer, it's no surprise that the most skilled drivers will rise to the top(ALO) . Let us hope they don't go back on it now as they have hit the sweet spot in this particular area.

ChrisDanger
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Re: 2016 Japanese Grand Prix - Suzuka, 07-09 October

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I'm pretty sure they changed the rules regarding clutch operation because they wanted to make it less automatic, thereby putting it more in control of the drivers and hence increase the variability. And this was probably done because people complained about the drivers not controlling things anymore, but rather having computers do all the work. Now that we have exactly that, people are complaining because some drivers or teams are most affected. Never mind that it's the team that otherwise starts and finishes first. But anyway, next year they will incorporate a currently-underutilised sensor into the ECU to control the torque during the start, so we'll go back to the initial "problem" again. :roll:

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Andres125sx
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Re: 2016 Japanese Grand Prix - Suzuka, 07-09 October

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Flyingfrog, imagine if you miss the sweet spot in one of those starts, you´re not going 6th from pole, you´re going probably 26th, at least in F1 they´re not parallel at the starts so the poleman has some meters advantage

That´s the part I mostly miss from MX racing, the starts were so tense, exciting.... OMG how I miss those starts with all riders starting parallel fighting for a space in first corner... :cry:

zac510
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Re: 2016 Japanese Grand Prix - Suzuka, 07-09 October

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Fulcrum wrote:When has there ever been a time in F1, or any other racing series with races of short duration and difficulty overtaking, where the start wasn't the most important component of the race? It is the only point in the race with both minimum field spread, and maximum performance differential (i.e. mistakes, poor execution, technical issues, poor warm-up technique, accidents). I.e. variance.

It sounds like what some people really want is rolling starts that ensure qualifying positions are preserved into the first corner; then we would watch the field spread out with virtually no passing throughout the race. Moreover, the complaint is that the start plays too much of a role in the outcome, and the charge is that luck deprives us of competition, that luck is unfair, and removing this element of racing would give us a 'true' contest. All of which are the complete antithesis of sport in general.

If you legislate away variance in the start, then you could argue that qualifying plays too large a role in the outcome. Considering qualifying is far less prone to significant random events, as it is measured over an hour, not tenths of a second, you simply won't observe much variation in grid order, and therefore finishing order.

As for the conjecture of the starts being too determined by luck. That's a very convenient catch-all statement you can use to rationalise outcomes you don't like, and it undermines those drivers who - probabilistically - perform better in this discipline.

I feel the current starting legislation is fair. It requires driver involvement, i.e. skill, to maximise the chance of a good outcome. Get it wrong, even slightly, and you lose out. The fact that the margin of error is small shouldn't detract from the ability to get it right.
Great post. One extra point you started to make but I'd like to add to; that F1 and its teams, drivers and relative performances are constantly changing, evolving and don't necessarily need rule changes to push them in the direction we want. As you pointed out if they do change something it might have negative knock-on effects onto other parts of F1. On the other hand it's entirely possible that without changing the start rules the starts will not be an issue at all in 2017 as the engineers will have all solved the problem over the winter in the new car.

People that call for knee-jerk rule changes are really taking a far too simplistic 2D view of Formula 1, IMO. It's 3D, constantly changing, 11 teams, FIA, a tyre supplier all pushing and prodding it in various directions and reacting to each other's actions. It's no wonder they get it wrong occasionally.

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Phil
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Re: 2016 Japanese Grand Prix - Suzuka, 07-09 October

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Fulcrum wrote:I feel the current starting legislation is fair. It requires driver involvement, i.e. skill, to maximise the chance of a good outcome. Get it wrong, even slightly, and you lose out. The fact that the margin of error is small shouldn't detract from the ability to get it right.
Is it possible to get the perfect launch? Of course it is. The question is, how much is it down to skill of the driver to know all the variables and set them perfectly?

A.) temperature of the clutch / engine = dependent on the formation lap and how long the car sits at idle
B.) the grip on his starting position = somewhat predictable as the driver can test this for the formation lap
C.) state and temperature of tires = dependent on the formation lap
D.) perfect rev range = dependent on the temperature of the clutch and the engine as well as the grip on the surface & tires
E.) reaction time, perfect throttle application etc = all down to the skill of the driver

My feeling is that a large part is dependent on A and this is something that affects the cars starting at the front more so than the cars behind, because they are in an idle position on the grid for around 20-40 seconds longer than the rest.

The temperature of the clutch is crucial (obviously) and depending on what temperature the clutch is in, it will either slip or grip better. This is a component that is probably extremely hard to manage, given the temperature increases with every second that the car is longer within its position as the rest of the grid completes the formation lap and lines up. This might make the starts more 'difficult' to manage for the front-running cars (they are sitting and waiting there the longest) than the cars further down the grid. This is probably also something that the team itself has to consider when they set up the cars; e.g. predict how hot the clutch is when the driver is on the grid and ready to go.

Other factors that probably also influence how well the car gets off the line is probably heat-soak. These cars are not meant to be standing still. They are optimally cooled when in motion, ideally under race speeds. This also includes the temperature state of the tires. When the car is immobile, waiting for the lights to go off at the start, it's sitting there, heating up and heat building up inside. I would imagine this heat also has an impact on how the engine copes when the throttle is floored and supposed to get off the line quickly. An engine operating outside its ideal temperature range will be more sensitive. This might be a cause why for instance, some cars bog down more at the start when slightly below the ideal rev range (e.g. the driver under-revs slightly).
Jolle wrote:I don't think the V8's have anything to do with it.
The V8s had a very different power delivery and characteristics. High revs, most power made high up within the rev range. A turbo, especially with added KERS system will produce a lot more torque lower down in the rev range, effectively resulting in more power at a lower rev-range (relatively speaking). For argument sake, you can compare an engine with a perfectly linear power-curve to that of a car that produces more torque lower down, but then trails off. Both cars will produce the same power at maximum revs, but the car with more torque lower down will produce more power at say 30% of the rev range. This effectively means that from idle to 50% of the rev range, one will accelerate harder than the other.

So yes, I fully expect the V6T to be more challenging to drive and more challenging to perfect standing starts in because the power delivery is different.
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turbof1
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Re: 2016 Japanese Grand Prix - Suzuka, 07-09 October

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Phil wrote:
Fulcrum wrote:I feel the current starting legislation is fair. It requires driver involvement, i.e. skill, to maximise the chance of a good outcome. Get it wrong, even slightly, and you lose out. The fact that the margin of error is small shouldn't detract from the ability to get it right.
Is it possible to get the perfect launch? Of course it is. The question is, how much is it down to skill of the driver to know all the variables and set them perfectly?

A.) temperature of the clutch / engine = dependent on the formation lap and how long the car sits at idle
B.) the grip on his starting position = somewhat predictable as the driver can test this for the formation lap
C.) state and temperature of tires = dependent on the formation lap
D.) perfect rev range = dependent on the temperature of the clutch and the engine as well as the grip on the surface & tires
E.) reaction time, perfect throttle application etc = all down to the skill of the driver

My feeling is that a large part is dependent on A and this is something that affects the cars starting at the front more so than the cars behind, because they are in an idle position on the grid for around 20-40 seconds longer than the rest.

The temperature of the clutch is crucial (obviously) and depending on what temperature the clutch is in, it will either slip or grip better. This is a component that is probably extremely hard to manage, given the temperature increases with every second that the car is longer within its position as the rest of the grid completes the formation lap and lines up. This might make the starts more 'difficult' to manage for the front-running cars (they are sitting and waiting there the longest) than the cars further down the grid. This is probably also something that the team itself has to consider when they set up the cars; e.g. predict how hot the clutch is when the driver is on the grid and ready to go.

Other factors that probably also influence how well the car gets off the line is probably heat-soak. These cars are not meant to be standing still. They are optimally cooled when in motion, ideally under race speeds. This also includes the temperature state of the tires. When the car is immobile, waiting for the lights to go off at the start, it's sitting there, heating up and heat building up inside. I would imagine this heat also has an impact on how the engine copes when the throttle is floored and supposed to get off the line quickly. An engine operating outside its ideal temperature range will be more sensitive. This might be a cause why for instance, some cars bog down more at the start when slightly below the ideal rev range (e.g. the driver under-revs slightly).
Jolle wrote:I don't think the V8's have anything to do with it.
The V8s had a very different power delivery and characteristics. High revs, most power made high up within the rev range. A turbo, especially with added KERS system will produce a lot more torque lower down in the rev range, effectively resulting in more power at a lower rev-range (relatively speaking). For argument sake, you can compare an engine with a perfectly linear power-curve to that of a car that produces more torque lower down, but then trails off. Both cars will produce the same power at maximum revs, but the car with more torque lower down will produce more power at say 30% of the rev range. This effectively means that from idle to 50% of the rev range, one will accelerate harder than the other.

So yes, I fully expect the V6T to be more challenging to drive and more challenging to perfect standing starts in because the power delivery is different.
But how much is A) influenced by the rule changes? 2 things really changed:
-double clutch paddle to single paddle
-no communication about the bite point.

There is no direct change in regard of clutch temperature. You are saying that the cars in front are more vulnerable to dropping out on the clutch. That is true, but that same vulnerability was last year as well. It is only exposed more.

Moreover, it does not mean you cannot adapt to it. It means you need to heat it more.
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Andres125sx
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Re: 2016 Japanese Grand Prix - Suzuka, 07-09 October

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Phil wrote:The V8s had a very different power delivery and characteristics. High revs, most power made high up within the rev range. A turbo, especially with added KERS system will produce a lot more torque lower down in the rev range, effectively resulting in more power at a lower rev-range (relatively speaking). For argument sake, you can compare an engine with a perfectly linear power-curve to that of a car that produces more torque lower down, but then trails off. Both cars will produce the same power at maximum revs, but the car with more torque lower down will produce more power at say 30% of the rev range. This effectively means that from idle to 50% of the rev range, one will accelerate harder than the other.

So yes, I fully expect the V6T to be more challenging to drive and more challenging to perfect standing starts in because the power delivery is different.
But it is exactly the other way around! It is a lot more difficult to start from still with a peaky engine than it is with a PU with plenty torque at low revs. More torque at low revs means if you don´t find the sweet spot maybe the PU still produce enough torque to make the start, even if not ideal. A peaky engine OTOH will stall easily in comparison

Take a petrol vs diesel engine as an example, if you release the clutch pedal too sharp on a petrol engine it will probably stall. Same with a diesel and it will probably tug but not stall

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turbof1
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Re: 2016 Japanese Grand Prix - Suzuka, 07-09 October

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That is actually a good comparison.
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PlatinumZealot
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Re: 2016 Japanese Grand Prix - Suzuka, 07-09 October

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flynfrog wrote:
PlatinumZealot wrote:
But if the result of the race was so much dependent on starts those races must have been very boring with the guy with the faster quad streaking away into the sunset.
Usually the better rider on the better machine won its generally how racing works.
You missed your own point. You said this...
So we treated the start as the most important part of the race.
This is obviously not the case in F1. You don't have to have the best start to win in F1. However, if you have an iffy clutch that leaves you six, sevens places back, then there is almost zero chance of winning. Mercedes problem is the darned clutch itself, not the drivers. Remember Rosberg also suffered fromt he same issues.. only by mere chance in my opinion.. he has suffered less.
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PlatinumZealot
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Re: 2016 Japanese Grand Prix - Suzuka, 07-09 October

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ChrisDanger wrote:I'm pretty sure they changed the rules regarding clutch operation because they wanted to make it less automatic, thereby putting it more in control of the drivers and hence increase the variability. And this was probably done because people complained about the drivers not controlling things anymore, but rather having computers do all the work. Now that we have exactly that, people are complaining because some drivers or teams are most affected. Never mind that it's the team that otherwise starts and finishes first. But anyway, next year they will incorporate a currently-underutilised sensor into the ECU to control the torque during the start, so we'll go back to the initial "problem" again. :roll:
Funny you say, this because I don't think the start is in much control of the driver anymore... It's like rolling dice. Match revs, release the pedal, modulate the gas... and pray that you don't stall or get wheel-spin.
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