Points system to be scrapped for 2009

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Metar
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Re: Points system to be scrapped for 2009

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Exactly. Frankly, the top isn't quite as open as the midfield. There's always a dominant package - rarely more than two drivers can truly contest the win, and usually, there's just one team with a dominant package.

Under a wins-only system (or a 1000-per-win), the dominant team will select the championship-leading driver to win, and the other one will play rear gunner. The midfield will have nothing to fight for.

Under the current system, the always-packed midfield is out there, fighting. How many times in early-2008 did we see Alonso qualify high on fumes, and see Webber or Trulli move up instead? Between P5 and P12 on the grid, there's position-swapping, overtaking and strategic brilliance and nonsense - and an overly-win-biased system, or a system that rewards every finisher, will kill that.

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jddh1
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Re: Points system to be scrapped for 2009

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Metar wrote:Under the current system, the always-packed midfield is out there, fighting. How many times in early-2008 did we see Alonso qualify high on fumes, and see Webber or Trulli move up instead? Between P5 and P12 on the grid, there's position-swapping, overtaking and strategic brilliance and nonsense - and an overly-win-biased system, or a system that rewards every finisher, will kill that.
I don't think it will kill it because drivers will always try to move up as much as possible. But it surely will not reward the efforts as much, if at all.

Good point otherwise though. There is more action in midfield, and that's expected, than at the top of the field.

Even in football, you collect points over the season, you don't count wins. They count wins in basketball because they don't have ties, and the sample is way larger, 82 games. If F1 had 82 races, then I'd agree that wins would be enough to determine a winner. But we have about 18 races, a much smaller sample size to just pick a champion from wins alone.

But if a "wins" system is in place, I do hope it rains for about 10 races so that Vettel wins the WDC with a RBR. That would be enough to make everyone question the system, including The Bernie.

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ISLAMATRON
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Joined: 01 Oct 2008, 18:29

Re: Points system to be scrapped for 2009

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Spencifer_Murphy wrote:Maximum Points = Win Every Race, so your first point is a little counterintuitive, but I think you mean that they are told to collect as many points as is within a reasonable risk, I still see that as nothing more than just common sence, remove that and you remove a key tactical aspect of F1.

F1 has always been a points collecting exercise, its not like this has been a recent deveolpment. For 58years the system has been: Collect points, add them up, most wins. The only difference being exactly how the points are scored, how many, and how many results count.

I also feel that the example you made of Hamilton and his Mcaren team at Brazil was a rather poor one. The best way to ensure you don't finish behind so and so is to finish first, simple commonsense I'm sure you'll agree. THE REASON Mclaren did not aim to finish first in that race is because the car simply was not fast enough at that circuit to win. If they had a car capable of winning the race do you honestly think they'll not aim for that?! The reason Hamilton had to struggle to keep fifth place is because he qualified (4th I think...I don't remeber clearly) either way he qualified a few places behind his main title rival. Commonsence would therefore dictate that racing to win (the only way I can think of doing so if your car fundamentally isn't fast enough around a particular lap is to crack up the revs and block off cooling apperatures) would be foolish as you run a hgh likelyhood of retireing, leaving you with no points, no championship, and no race win either way.
Yes maximum points within a reasonable risk, the problem lies in that the risk is way too high and the rewards way too low.

F1 has not allways been a points collecting exorcise, it has only begun to be so with the removal of the "top 11 finishes" rule for the '91 season...

Check this
http://www.formula1.com/results/season/1950/
see the "Only the best four of seven scores counted towards the world championship"
http://www.formula1.com/results/season/1960/
Only the best SIX scores counted towards the championship
http://www.formula1.com/results/season/1970/
Only the best six scores from the first seven races and the best five scores from the remaining six races counted towards the championship
http://www.formula1.com/results/season/1980/
Only the best five scores from the five seven races and the best four scores from the remaining eight races counted towards the championship.
http://www.formula1.com/results/season/1990/
Best 11 results only counted towards the championship.

That is proof that for a long time F1 was more about Wins than consistancy and has only been less so since 91 when they made the change.
If you have proof otherwise please post it, I have provided my proof.


My Example of HAmilton in Brazil is not a poor one because McLaren was fast enuff in Brazil they recorded the fastest lap of the weekend in Brazil 1:11.786 by Heikki in Q2,
http://www.formula1.com/results/season/2008/804/6585/

and we all know with the parc ferme rule that you race in the same config as you qualify. Hamilton was weighed heavy in q3 so that he would have more options in case it rained... they were playing it safe instead of attacking for a win... again the risk of losing 2nd(or in this case 5th) place is too high and the reward of winning too low.
http://www.formula1.com/results/season/2008/804/6585/

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ISLAMATRON
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Re: Points system to be scrapped for 2009

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jddh1 wrote:
Metar wrote:Under the current system, the always-packed midfield is out there, fighting. How many times in early-2008 did we see Alonso qualify high on fumes, and see Webber or Trulli move up instead? Between P5 and P12 on the grid, there's position-swapping, overtaking and strategic brilliance and nonsense - and an overly-win-biased system, or a system that rewards every finisher, will kill that.
I don't think it will kill it because drivers will always try to move up as much as possible. But it surely will not reward the efforts as much, if at all.

Good point otherwise though. There is more action in midfield, and that's expected, than at the top of the field.

Even in football, you collect points over the season, you don't count wins. They count wins in basketball because they don't have ties, and the sample is way larger, 82 games. If F1 had 82 races, then I'd agree that wins would be enough to determine a winner. But we have about 18 races, a much smaller sample size to just pick a champion from wins alone.

But if a "wins" system is in place, I do hope it rains for about 10 races so that Vettel wins the WDC with a RBR. That would be enough to make everyone question the system, including The Bernie.

If one of the midfield teams wins(by luck or otherwise) it will reward them even more, and they will still score points for scoring in the midfield and their position will be categorized whether they are 8th or 10th or 15th.

What football are you talking about? european? Because in american footbal you only get to the playoffs based on wins and the sample size is 16.

And if any driver wins 10 races he desrerves the WDC hands down.

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jddh1
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Re: Points system to be scrapped for 2009

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ISLAMATRON wrote:My Example of HAmilton in Brazil is not a poor one because McLaren was fast enuff in Brazil they recorded the fastest lap of the weekend in Brazil 1:11.786 by Heikki in Q2,
http://www.formula1.com/results/season/2008/804/6585/

and we all know with the parc ferme rule that you race in the same config as you qualify.
Q2 and Q3 configurations are different, dude. come on now. small differences, but still, differences.
ISLAMATRON wrote:Hamilton was weighed heavy in q3 so that he would have more options in case it rained... they were playing it safe instead of attacking for a win... again the risk of losing 2nd(or in this case 5th) place is too high and the reward of winning too low.
http://www.formula1.com/results/season/2008/804/6585/
He spend all the previous races trying to win. I could live with a conservative approach for a race.
And let's not forget, in Brazil, Hami was on his second race for that engine. We (Ferarri) were on a fresh one (remember massa blew his a few races back.)
And let's not forget, they knew Massa was going to win Brazil, much like Ferrari knows Hami will go for the win at Silverstone, no matter what the damage to parts and other stuff long term.

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jddh1
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Re: Points system to be scrapped for 2009

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ISLAMATRON wrote:What football are you talking about? european? Because in american footbal you only get to the playoffs based on wins and the sample size is 16.
Yes, the real football. I'm not talking about Pass-Run-Ball.
ISLAMATRON wrote:And if any driver wins 10 races he desrerves the WDC hands down.
I don't think anybody is ever questioning that. But running a season also implies managing the situation at your best, when you are not the best. If you win 10 races and DNF all others, then perhaps, as much as you deserve to win the title, you might not. And that's too bad. But hey, boo-hoo. I'm not complaining Massa lost the title. I think if the engine did not blow, or the pit stop mistakes did not happen, we would not even have this conversation right now because The Bernie would have won his bet. (He bet on Massa at the start of the 2008 season. I think he's mad he lost his bet. I think his wife bet on Hami and that's how the rift between them started. Now he's taking the anger out on the racers.)

xpensive
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Re: Points system to be scrapped for 2009

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Always wondered how Nascar system works, when it seems to me that everybody gets twohundred points or so just for finishing, which makes it virtually impossible to run away with the Championship, still they slug it out like crazy for each win?
"I spent most of my money on wine and women...I wasted the rest"

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ISLAMATRON
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Re: Points system to be scrapped for 2009

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Spencifer_Murphy wrote:That's true, using a system like ISLAMATRON pointed out, whereby all positions score points has two problems:

a) you score points puely for finishing the race (big deal)
b) (if you believe that F1 drivers are happy to just settle for the seasy option)the midfield loose the will to fight for that much desired final points scoreing position.
A)Just getting to the races seems extremely difficult these days, example Honda, SAR, Minardi, Spyker, Midland, Prost, Jaguar, and even BGP. You keep saying finishing consistently is more important than winning(consistently) yet you think giving points to all finishers is not important.

The midfield drivers will fight for 1 point for 8th or 1 more point for 10th regardless. this gives the whole field something to race for rather than just the sharp end and the top-midfield.

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Sawtooth-spike
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Re: Points system to be scrapped for 2009

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What if he Wins 8 races and does not finsh the rest (Ricky Bobby) but somebody else wins 7 but finshs the rest on the podium. Who is the better driver, who should be the Champ?

Sorry to use a "what if", but in this case it a fair example of should F1 be about "win or bust" or "Success through consistancy and quality".
I believe in the chain of command, Its the chain I use to beat you till you do what i want!!!

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ISLAMATRON
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Re: Points system to be scrapped for 2009

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xpensive wrote:Always wondered how Nascar system works, when it seems to me that everybody gets twohundred points or so just for finishing, which makes it virtually impossible to run away with the Championship, still they slug it out like crazy for each win?
Actually people did used to run away with the championship, and then no one would pay attention to the last 10 races anyway because the pass-run-ball season kicked in... so then they instituted the chase for the cup, a playoff in the last 10 races... a big gimmick, but for their purposes it has worked reasonably.

Its not about how many points you get, its about how many points you get relative to your competitiors.

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ISLAMATRON
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Re: Points system to be scrapped for 2009

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Sawtooth-spike wrote:What if he Wins 8 races and does not finsh the rest (Ricky Bobby) but somebody else wins 7 but finshs the rest on the podium. Who is the better driver, who should be the Champ?

Sorry to use a "what if", but in this case it a fair example of should F1 be about "win or bust" or "Success through consistancy and quality".
Well in the 1000 point system the seven driver would win... in BE's short sided medal system the 8 wins driver would.

I thought it was foolish for the FIA to install a system where the points leader could in some instances not be the WDC, but it was an improvement over the system in place today.

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ISLAMATRON
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Re: Points system to be scrapped for 2009

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jddh1 wrote:I don't think anybody is ever questioning that. But running a season also implies managing the situation at your best, when you are not the best. If you win 10 races and DNF all others, then perhaps, as much as you deserve to win the title, you might not. And that's too bad. But hey, boo-hoo. I'm not complaining Massa lost the title. I think if the engine did not blow, or the pit stop mistakes did not happen, we would not even have this conversation right now because The Bernie would have won his bet. (He bet on Massa at the start of the 2008 season. I think he's mad he lost his bet. I think his wife bet on Hami and that's how the rift between them started. Now he's taking the anger out on the racers.)

What about if MAssa didnt spin the first 2 races of the year? or the whole race in Silverstone?

CMSMJ1
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Re: Points system to be scrapped for 2009

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A point is supposed to be a valuable and well earned thing.. not given away like sweeties.

Why were Minardi over the moon with Mark Webber when he came 5th in Oz? They knew points were valuable and tough to get.

They should still be tough to get...and should not be just handed out for turning up.
IMPERATOR REX ANGLORUM

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ISLAMATRON
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Re: Points system to be scrapped for 2009

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CMSMJ1 wrote:A point is supposed to be a valuable and well earned thing.. not given away like sweeties.

Why were Minardi over the moon with Mark Webber when he came 5th in Oz? They knew points were valuable and tough to get.

They should still be tough to get...and should not be just handed out for turning up.
That is your belief... not a fact... Webber getting a 5th for Minardi and 2 points doesnt make him a better driver than Alonso now or When Alonso shined very brightly in Minardi with zero points. The points system as it stands now is flawed.

Points are arbitrary... All I would like is for the points system to reflect the situation as a whole in a better way. Staring at zeros across the board for Alonso & Minardi tells me nothing of his true performance in such a relativly crap car. Should he not be recognized for finishing 7th, 8th, 9th, or even 10th when his teammate could not even qualify within the 107% rule?

As an aero engineer would like the CFD to reflect the actual real world effects of the car, I would like the points system to model the actual goings on thru the season.

donskar
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Re: Points system to be scrapped for 2009

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islamatron wrote:
Check this
http://www.formula1.com/results/season/1950/
see the "Only the best four of seven scores counted towards the world championship"
http://www.formula1.com/results/season/1960/
Only the best SIX scores counted towards the championship
http://www.formula1.com/results/season/1970/
Only the best six scores from the first seven races and the best five scores from the remaining six races counted towards the championship
http://www.formula1.com/results/season/1980/
Only the best five scores from the five seven races and the best four scores from the remaining eight races counted towards the championship.
http://www.formula1.com/results/season/1990/
Best 11 results only counted towards the championship.

That is proof that for a long time F1 was more about Wins than consistancy and has only been less so since 91 when they made the change.
If you have proof otherwise please post it, I have provided my proof.
No, islamatron, that does not fly. Please remember, no matter how strongly you feel about a point, your belief does not constitute "proof." The winners in the instances you mention above still were those who scored the MOST POINTS in their best finishes -- NOT the most wins. Yes, it was most points in a sub-group of races, THAT is true, but the WDC was the driver who scored the most points -- their best FINISHES, not wins.

To clarify, rather than just rant, Please read you own "proof":
Only the best six scores from the first seven races and the best five scores from the remaining six races counted towards the championship

"best six scores" NOT "wins;" "best five scores" NOT "wins."

To cite some historical "proof" that POINTS counted, take 1961. Phil Hill, Wolfgang von Trips and Sterling Moss each won 2 GPs that year. Hill won the WDC on the basis of scoring the MOST POINTS in his best 5 finishes. Moss finished third, tied with Dan Gurney - who won NO races at all - again on the basis of points, not wins. Most telling, Giancarlo Baghetti won one race, but finished behind four drivers who won no races at all -- because of points.

In fact, that historical result refutes your statement
That is proof that for a long time F1 was more about Wins than consistancy
. In fact, the opposite was true. Moss won two races, Gurney none, but they finished tied, because of Gurney's consistency. Baghetti won a race; Bruce Mclaren, Jimmy Clark, Dan Gurney, and Richie Ginther won NO races, but finished ahead of Baghetti, because THEY WERE REWARDED FOR CONSISTENCY.

Do you accept my "proof"? Or are you still too closed-minded to see reality? Try 1964 when Clark won three races, Surtees two -- and Surtees was WDC because of TOTAL POINTS. He won fewer races -- and the WDC -- because he scored more points, was more consistent, than Clark.
Enzo Ferrari was a great man. But he was not a good man. -- Phil Hill