2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

[mkay]

That’s what I hope at least. Why waste resources on such an expensive part when there are big changes coming for the 2024 car anyway. But your crystal ball is as good as mine

There's probably still some value in using the W14 "B" as a testing mule for 2024 concepts. Ultimately, with little rule changes for 2024, I am not sure why they're not keen to test new ideas and concept on this year's car. Would potentially save them time/money down the road if they are not sure about the right development path to take.

You have to balance this with not showing the cards to the competition. You don't want to tip anyone off to an interesting idea.

Fair point and I agree. That being said, my understanding is that they're lacking particularly around the floor underbody, engine cover / sidepods and rear / beam wing. Bar the rudimentary sidepods introduced in Monaco, the other parts are haven't been updated at all this season. Feels like a lot of low hanging fruits for Mercedes.

On a separate note, McLaren follows Red Bull's suspension philosophy (pullrod front, pushrod rears). I understand that this is purely driven by aerodynamics; could we see Merc make a similar change for next year?

[ValeVida46]

I know he was not full beans after having to overtake Gasly and Alonso on first few laps, nevertheless Sainz was also protecting his tyres [even with Russelle and Leclerc battling and losing time fighting each others he was not coming back at them], especially with Ferrari concerns about tyre deg (thats also why they pitted so early..). When Russell started a bit out of position in Spain, he managed to clear both Aston and Sainz pretty easily... When you are faster you are faster. Closing 1.5 in 15 laps isn't being faster, especially when it's Lewis vs Carlos.
Overall as I said Ferrari are downplaying their pace to hide the fact that without the dreadful strategy they could've finished ahead of one of the Merc at least, and maybe on the podium for one of them if they benefited from SC.
At the end of the day Merc will still believe it's a good day but it was not on a raw pace imo.

Leclerc was clearly faster than the Williams but he couldn't overtake Albon cause the Williams has too much top speed + it had DRS...

That's a double standard take I'm afraid. "When you are faster you are faster" unless you are a Ferrari chasing a Williams.

As for Sainz protecting his tyres, he doesn't do so in a vacuum or without anyone else doing the same. And he certainly wasn't riding 1 second behind another car while preserving his tyres. Hamilton kept the gap steady for a reason as following closely you destroy your tyres way faster than the car in front, it's basic race management which Hamilton/Mercedes accounted for due to the next pitstop having the option to undercut/overcut with a different compound. As it happens, this worked out as it frequently does vs Ferrari. All teams were aware of the graining problem, and as mentioned this became really apparent when Hamilton was chasing Lando.

Russell was all over LeClerc in the first stint and even backed off before going at him again to get the tyres back into optimal range only 0.3 behind Le Clerc on Lap 19, with Softs on Russel, and Mediums on Ferrari which were meant to go for longer but LeClerc was losing time and Ferrari went with the hard tyre. This tells a tale.
Besides this Mercedes on mediums had a faster lap time than the Ferrari on mediums at similar point in the race (Russell v LeClerc) which is the only accurate metric as prior to that they had different compounds or fuel loads.

[Spoutnik]

I know he was not full beans after having to overtake Gasly and Alonso on first few laps, nevertheless Sainz was also protecting his tyres [even with Russelle and Leclerc battling and losing time fighting each others he was not coming back at them], especially with Ferrari concerns about tyre deg (thats also why they pitted so early..). When Russell started a bit out of position in Spain, he managed to clear both Aston and Sainz pretty easily... When you are faster you are faster. Closing 1.5 in 15 laps isn't being faster, especially when it's Lewis vs Carlos.
Overall as I said Ferrari are downplaying their pace to hide the fact that without the dreadful strategy they could've finished ahead of one of the Merc at least, and maybe on the podium for one of them if they benefited from SC.
At the end of the day Merc will still believe it's a good day but it was not on a raw pace imo.

Leclerc was clearly faster than the Williams but he couldn't overtake Albon cause the Williams has too much top speed + it had DRS...

That's a double standard take I'm afraid. "When you are faster you are faster" unless you are a Ferrari chasing a Williams.

As for Sainz protecting his tyres, he doesn't do so in a vacuum or without anyone else doing the same. And he certainly wasn't riding 1 second behind another car while preserving his tyres. Hamilton kept the gap steady for a reason as following closely you destroy your tyres way faster than the car in front, it's basic race management which Hamilton/Mercedes accounted for due to the next pitstop having the option to undercut/overcut with a different compound. As it happens, this worked out as it frequently does vs Ferrari. All teams were aware of the graining problem, and as mentioned this became really apparent when Hamilton was chasing Lando.

Russell was all over LeClerc in the first stint and even backed off before going at him again to get the tyres back into optimal range only 0.3 behind Le Clerc on Lap 19, with Softs on Russel, and Mediums on Ferrari which were meant to go for longer but LeClerc was losing time and Ferrari went with the hard tyre. This tells a tale.
Besides this Mercedes on mediums had a faster lap time than the Ferrari on mediums at similar point in the race (Russell v LeClerc) which is the only accurate metric as prior to that they had different compounds or fuel loads.


https://twitter.com/wearetherace/status ... 9760336901

Albon was going at full beans with new Soft tyres in the middle of a DRS train while Leclerc was on medium... so it's not double standart it's just a very different situation. And even with this situation Albon said he couldn't hold up Leclerc for one more lap.

You are basically saying that Russell was unable to overtake Leclerc on track, and I believe it would have been the same story for Lewis despite all you are saying about tyre management being true. So, again, if Ferrari were a competent team, if Perez wasn't a bozo on sunday, Merc would have finished P6-7/8, which is a very different story. How the race unfold made the car looks good, which isn't "good" because the team has to get back to the drawing board imo.

For the medium lap times comparison when did this happen ? When Leclerc was stuck in the midfield and Russell was behind Piastri ?

[ValeVida46]

Albon was going at full beans with new Soft tyres in the middle of a DRS train while Leclerc was on medium... so it's not double standart it's just a very different situation. And even with this situation Albon said he couldn't hold up Leclerc for one more lap.

You are basically saying that Russell was unable to overtake Leclerc on track, and I believe it would have been the same story for Lewis despite all you are saying about tyre management being true. So, again, if Ferrari were a competent team, if Perez wasn't a bozo on sunday, Merc would have finished P6-7/8, which is a very different story. How the race unfold made the car looks good, which isn't "good" because the team has to get back to the drawing board imo.

For the medium lap times comparison when did this happen ? When Leclerc was stuck in the midfield and Russell was behind Piastri ?

Check the tweet, the fuel loads are indicative as to when.

You asserted that Ferrari were the quicker car in the race, but we have a fact they couldn't match Mercs pace on the same compound at a near identical fuel load(Russell had marginally more fuel).
You assert the reason was because Ferrari couldn't show their pace because they were stuck behind a Williams.
Yet Merc were on both Ferrari's tails before their 1st Pitstops in a similar situation.
It should also be noted that if Ferrari can't stretch their mediums to at least the pace of a soft after 18 laps, they are in a spot of bother. Because at no time did their drivers get to a crossover point relative to Mercedes or Williams. Yet Mercedes, Red Bull and McLaren could(and Williams).
There's another tell.


So why is Ferrari's inability to overtake the Williams not portrayed as the Williams being the quicker car?
This is essentially what you are doing in the Ferrari/Merc comparison.

Ferrari also have a topspeed advantage to Mercedes in excess of 5kmh according to the quali data and 3kmh faster over start/finish line.
https://f1i.com/news/480241-silverston ... all-5.html

So if Mercedes were stuck behind a faster car in a straightline, they'd wait it out for reasons of tyre preservation, as shown by Russell going 9 laps more than the Ferrari one step compound softer. And they would also maybe get lucky with a safety car, as shown by Hamilton.
Yet Russell still beat both Ferrari's.
They would also hang it out for as long as possible to counter whatever Ferrari do or take the same compound but 6 or 7 laps fresher, this has happened at least 4 or 5 times this season.

All told, the line of least resistance is that Mercedes were just faster, it wasn't a huge difference though.
That relies on less ifs and buts, and it isn't the first time we see Ferrari's inability in the race to switch the tyres on or keep it in optimal windows, which makes their qualy pace largely fanciful.

[dans79]

As I have repeatedly said many times on these threads, criticisms are fine and good if constructive.

problem is far to few people want to do the work to obtain the knowledge needed to give proper criticism.

[dans79]

Really surprised they haven't done a new floor yet but perhaps the architecture of the tub is not allowing them to make the changes the want. Perhaps a new rear wing is to follow on from the new front wing?

I think they are trying to maximize what they can make under the budget cap. If you make a floor and it doesn't work with the new front wing, then you just wasted a good chunk of money. That's a much bigger issue now than it was prior to the cap.

as the rules are currently written a component doesn't cost anything until it's run on track.

Thus, imo, if you have a wing and a floor, you run the wing first, and validate how its working. if it works as expected, you can add the floor for the next race. If it doesn't you can tweak the floor design and build a new one at no cost relative to the cap.

[ValeVida46]

Toto Wolff:
"I think pretty soon. We have no choice.
P2 or P3 fundamentally doesn't impact me and the team. It's about coming back and being able to win a world championship in that respect. That's not going to happen this year.
So we need to set our eyes to next year and then, at all the races to come, learn and develop, and make sure that we can carry that forward into next year.
But, having said that, the regulations are the same. So it's not that you're not learning nothing by continuing this car. It's a balance that we have to strike right.

I think we are restricted by the cost cap and by the relative less amount in wind tunnel and CFD time that McLaren was able to have. They finished further back in the championship and they were like fifth or sixth mid year. So they carried over that more wind tunnel time allocation. And that's why it's kind of difficult. Do I believe that we have upgrades in there that are going to fundamentally change the car? I don't believe so. But we have a few small steps that are to come. And you can see that if you find the tenth or two or three, it puts you in a different position on the grid."

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/merc ... /10494198/

After reading this I'd be very surprised if we see a new floor this year. Small updates ahead...

Also seems very much like this is going to be the way for the next few years, with teams halting development to try "undercut" rivals the following season depending on relative standings to performance. But as Wolff said the regs are the same and only variation is lower placed teams get more CFD wind tunnel time.
1 season someone spends 120m and the following season the car benefits from 150m worth of investments, as car development overlaps budget windows.

($135m/staff/materials/CFD/Windtunnel) x Time will be a formula all teams will be wrestling with. If there is a few million extra apportioned to next years car, you can potentially make some sizeable relative gains a la Aston Martin/Williams.
There is also the very real possibility Mercedes are stuck and it's either too prohibitive to change the floor cost wise, or simply they can utilise the resources better for next year.

And the larger the discrepancy in points to the lead, the more it makes sense, and not just for Merc, but for all teams.

[Willy]

As I have repeatedly said many times on these threads, criticisms are fine and good if constructive.

problem is far to few people want to do the work to obtain the knowledge needed to give proper criticism.

Both sides are a problem. One that mindlessly criticizes a team and driver (applies to both Max/Red Bull and Lewis/Mercedes) that fails to recognize good; and the blind fan following that thinks everything that their driver/team does is right and fights for it and considers criticism as a sin. Being non partisan is fundamental to obtain knowledge, which 99% aren't, whether it is on this forum or any other forum/social media.

[ValeVida46]

As I have repeatedly said many times on these threads, criticisms are fine and good if constructive.

problem is far to few people want to do the work to obtain the knowledge needed to give proper criticism.

If their names starts with Toto, Lewis or George, W14, don't expect balanced criticisms.

Can you imagine this thread if Lewis/George/Toto said what Alonso did by predicting a podium every race?
Yet the Aston thread is of relative serenity, with some speculation that Mercedes are sabotaging Aston...

[Alex_Z]

Both pitstops were a joke again yesterday, cost Russell the overcut to Leclerc. Why don't f1 journos ask Toto about this issue? It's been going on for a few years now. They are the only top team that can't do a pitstop sub 2.5s like McLaren & Redbull. I consider a 3s stop great for Mercedes that's how low the bar has become

[Hammerfist]

Both pitstops were a joke again yesterday, cost Russell the overcut to Leclerc. Why don't f1 journos ask Toto about this issue? It's been going on for a few years now. They are the only top team that can't do a pitstop sub 2.5s like McLaren & Redbull. I consider a 3s stop great for Mercedes that's how low the bar has become

Yes, 3.9sec for George and 3.2s for Lewis. It is a huge issue. In a close championship fight these could be race deciding factors.

[j_ste]

Both pitstops were a joke again yesterday, cost Russell the overcut to Leclerc. Why don't f1 journos ask Toto about this issue? It's been going on for a few years now. They are the only top team that can't do a pitstop sub 2.5s like McLaren & Redbull. I consider a 3s stop great for Mercedes that's how low the bar has become

Interesting how this keeps happening. In the grand scheme, I'm sure it isnt that big of an issue. But to be consistently bad at something is strange.
The margins between Lewis and Oscar coming out of the pits under the SC were tight

Apparently Toto said the Spa updates are to be minor. I guess even if they arent, its better to say that than to give it the big speech

[CHT]

Toto Wolff:
"I think pretty soon. We have no choice.
P2 or P3 fundamentally doesn't impact me and the team. It's about coming back and being able to win a world championship in that respect. That's not going to happen this year.
So we need to set our eyes to next year and then, at all the races to come, learn and develop, and make sure that we can carry that forward into next year.
But, having said that, the regulations are the same. So it's not that you're not learning nothing by continuing this car. It's a balance that we have to strike right.

I think we are restricted by the cost cap and by the relative less amount in wind tunnel and CFD time that McLaren was able to have. They finished further back in the championship and they were like fifth or sixth mid year. So they carried over that more wind tunnel time allocation. And that's why it's kind of difficult. Do I believe that we have upgrades in there that are going to fundamentally change the car? I don't believe so. But we have a few small steps that are to come. And you can see that if you find the tenth or two or three, it puts you in a different position on the grid."

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/merc ... /10494198/

After reading this I'd be very surprised if we see a new floor this year. Small updates ahead...

Also seems very much like this is going to be the way for the next few years, with teams halting development to try "undercut" rivals the following season depending on relative standings to performance. But as Wolff said the regs are the same and only variation is lower placed teams get more CFD wind tunnel time.
1 season someone spends 120m and the following season the car benefits from 150m worth of investments, as car development overlaps budget windows.

($135m/staff/materials/CFD/Windtunnel) x Time will be a formula all teams will be wrestling with. If there is a few million extra apportioned to next years car, you can potentially make some sizeable relative gains a la Aston Martin/Williams.
There is also the very real possibility Mercedes are stuck and it's either too prohibitive to change the floor cost wise, or simply they can utilise the resources better for next year.

And the larger the discrepancy in points to the lead, the more it makes sense, and not just for Merc, but for all teams.

The sad truth is the RBR has already started their 2024 campaign by trying to make this year's car even faster, while Merc is still undecided on which direction to make a problematic car go fast. As Marko has pointed out recently, during the period when Merc was dominating, they had an engine that produces more hp than others. Without the HP advantage, we may not see the same Merc domination for years to come.

For 2024, I reckon what Merc can possibly hope for will be as quick as AM or Mclaren, as I believe with the same engine, teams like Mclaren may be able to out-develop Merc due to their vast experience with aero and wind tunnel.
Merc may have to accept to copy RBR, AM and Mclaren design philosophy

[ringo]

The poor stops may be down to tooling.

As for the floor. They are probably making sure that it is very effective before bringing it on track.
Maybe they were going to release it then saw the rb19 floor then back tracked to study thr rb floor and revise theirs again before releasing.

[ValeVida46]

The sad truth is the RBR has already started their 2024 campaign by trying to make this year's car even faster, while Merc is still undecided on which direction to make a problematic car go fast. As Marko has pointed out recently, during the period when Merc was dominating, they had an engine that produces more hp than others. Without the HP advantage, we may not see the same Merc domination for years to come.

For 2024, I reckon what Merc can possibly hope for will be as quick as AM or Mclaren, as I believe with the same engine, teams like Mclaren may be able to out-develop Merc due to their vast experience with aero and wind tunnel.
Merc may have to accept to copy RBR, AM and Mclaren design philosophy

Not sure how you are bringing engines up in discussion, when Mercedes have been the best placed Mercedes engine runner for the last 10 years. And even with a "problematic car", they're still 150 points up the road from the only now quicker McLaren.

See this is the problem, if you throw the baby out with the bath water you miss the nuance every team is juggling with.
McLaren were in crisis 4 months ago. Senior Staff relieved of duties, finishing stone last or very close to that in some races.
Nobody can clearly say if the update is Prodromou or Key's work. But Key is gone. They sacrificed their first half of the season to bring this update, which also created upheavel.

What I believe we are seeing is a concertina effect in the development race, and it solidifies towards the halfway point when teams look to the following year or invest in consolidating this years positioning. So what is the point of wasting resources on this years car when it can be put to more efficient use into a car that wont be compromised?