Mclaren MP4-30 Honda

[i70q7m7ghw]

Honda can easily change the ancillaries on the block.

They can argue that they won't change the inner block workings so no performance will be had.
They can show that the water jackets and other reliefs and features will only be changed for reliability.
Then with that out the way they can modify the inner V of the engine, then treat the new Turbo-mguh assembly as a separate part to modify all-together.

They can do it.

They can argue it to an extent. It depends how far Honda wants to redesign the PU, but I think that if they really want to tackle all the problems in one go, the other manufacturers can veto it due being too extensive. It's not a cut-troat business with those vetoes, and manufacturers do allow eachother quite some room to update reliability, but then again they are not stupid: anything that opens doors for extra performance that is not there in the first place, is going to be blocked off.

Okay... so what happens if Honda just do it and turn up with the engine at the start of 2016?

[JoeE]

Honda can easily change the ancillaries on the block.

They can argue that they won't change the inner block workings so no performance will be had.
They can show that the water jackets and other reliefs and features will only be changed for reliability.
Then with that out the way they can modify the inner V of the engine, then treat the new Turbo-mguh assembly as a separate part to modify all-together.

They can do it.

They can argue it to an extent. It depends how far Honda wants to redesign the PU, but I think that if they really want to tackle all the problems in one go, the other manufacturers can veto it due being too extensive. It's not a cut-troat business with those vetoes, and manufacturers do allow eachother quite some room to update reliability, but then again they are not stupid: anything that opens doors for extra performance that is not there in the first place, is going to be blocked off.

Okay... so what happens if Honda just do it and turn up with the engine at the start of 2016?

Was thinking that myself.I could swear Sergio Marchionne stated at monza about a re-designed engine for 2016 at Ferrari also. Went looking for the interview with Ted I believe but youtube aint giving it up.

[turbof1]

Again, every change has to be justified and approved. If they just turn up without approval first they will be disqualified due running cars breaching the technical rules.

Sergio Marchionne will have changes in mind for which he uses tokens. That's fine, but the changes still need to be checked by the FIA for compliance. Also, when Marchionne said a redesigned engine, he probably meant a reasonable amount of changes on the current platform they have. Next year manufacturers will only be allowed to spend 25 tokens, as well as things like covers and stuff around the valve drive frozen.

I don't think you can solve Honda's issues with 25 tokens.

Here's a nice list of the token plan:

[Blackout]

Again, every change has to be justified and approved. If they just turn up without approval first they will be disqualified due running cars breaching the technical rules.

Sergio Marchionne will have changes in mind for which he uses tokens. That's fine, but the changes still need to be checked by the FIA for compliance. Also, when Marchionne said a redesigned engine, he probably meant a reasonable amount of changes on the current platform they have. Next year manufacturers will only be allowed to spend 25 tokens, as well as things like covers and stuff around the valve drive frozen.

I don't think you can solve Honda's issues with 25 tokens.

Here's a nice list of the token plan:
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-s0w92rclZ-k/V ... 7%2BAM.jpg

Can you explain further why. If Honda decides to copy Merc's split Turbo... I tried to calculate how much tokens they would spend and I got 18

[turbof1]

I don't believe the issues will be limited to the turbo. It's just a hunch, but I think it extends to the MGU-K and MGU-H too. Honda has problems in a lot areas: power deployment, efficiency, harvesting,... .

Did you include 3 token points btw for the combustion? A different turbo size will mean the combustion change.

[Blackout]

Nope... and this time I got 27

[Thunder]

I would like to believe the changes to the Combustion Chamber made for the Spa update where with next Year in Mind.

[Sevach]

I don't think you can solve Honda's issues with 25 tokens.

They still have 4 from 2015 to help.

But in general i think the token thing is extremely unfair to the teams that are behind.

[F1NAC]

Its not gonna get much easier in2016. Because pre season testing will start AFTER homologation date in February so all the teams will not gather that much data like previous years which is for me a bit stupid

[ME4ME]

Its not gonna get much easier in2016. Because pre season testing will start AFTER homologation date in February so all the teams will not gather that much data like previous years which is for me a bit stupid

Indeed insanely stupid. Hopefully the FIA will come to their senses and move forward the homologation date to Australia FP1.

[F1NAC]

Indeed insanely stupid. Hopefully the FIA will come to their senses and move forward the homologation date to Australia FP1.

unfortunately thats the problem

[i70q7m7ghw]

Again, every change has to be justified and approved. If they just turn up without approval first they will be disqualified due running cars breaching the technical rules.

IMO - Honda should just turn up with a redesigned engine. Will the FIA DSQ them from the sport? I doubt it. It'll be a fiscal penalty.

[diffuser]

[
From my understanding and how the talks went down, it was basically "Here is the new chassis, we need the engine footprint to be this, please make it work..." This is where I think McLaren went wrong.

To make major changes to a PU is not a simple one to three month process. There are so many moving parts tied into each other that deciding to move the MGU-H or change the location of the turbo just doesn't happen midstream. As far as not wanting preferential treatment, usually there are so many underlying strings attached that it may not have been worth it. The FIA is not a democracy, it's a dictatorship.

Yeah, I don't buy that.
The Arai I've see this year has the cojones to stand his ground.
- When EB around Monaco GP said that the PU improvements would be quick, Arai was quick to respond that they
would be slow, gradual and consistent across every race.
- His statement that only the Honda Board has the power to fire him also speaks to the size of his cojones.
- By McLaren trying to go around him, shows that McLaren have tried to get him to bend without success.

So if he bought into size 0, he thought it was possible and not just because McLaren told him to.


What I had read and understood was offered to Renault and Honda was that there would be no token restrictions during the whole 2016 season. That they would be allowed to develop during the whole year, non stop. That being said, I can't find the article.

[Wazari]

[
From my understanding and how the talks went down, it was basically "Here is the new chassis, we need the engine footprint to be this, please make it work..." This is where I think McLaren went wrong.

To make major changes to a PU is not a simple one to three month process. There are so many moving parts tied into each other that deciding to move the MGU-H or change the location of the turbo just doesn't happen midstream. As far as not wanting preferential treatment, usually there are so many underlying strings attached that it may not have been worth it. The FIA is not a democracy, it's a dictatorship.

Yeah, I don't buy that.
The Arai I've see this year has the cojones to stand his ground.
- When EB around Monaco GP said that the PU improvements would be quick, Arai was quick to respond that they
would be slow, gradual and consistent across every race.
- His statement that only the Honda Board has the power to fire him also speaks to the size of his cojones.
- By McLaren trying to go around him, shows that McLaren have tried to get him to bend without success.

So if he bought into size 0, he thought it was possible and not just because McLaren told him to.


What I had read and understood was offered to Renault and Honda was that there would be no token restrictions during the whole 2016 season. That they would be allowed to develop during the whole year, non stop. That being said, I can't find the article.

Well, my sources tell me that's exactly what happened and it was above Arai-san's paygrade where that mandate came down. Believe me, Arai-san's ultimate decision making power is very limited. On the surface it may seem that he has a lot of power, but the ultimate decisions come from up above. I know if it were up to him, there is no way Honda Racing would have entered the F1 arena in 2015. Japanese business culture is where no means yes and yes means maybe.

I have shared a beer with Arai-san. IMO he is brilliant, tough and not a quitter. However, his hands are bound very tightly at what he can ultimately do. He has free reign inside his department as to personnel, design advancements within the PU, etc. but at the end of the day, everything is basically a committee decision. That is Honda's way. What happens outside of his department, he has very little say........

[diffuser]

Well, my sources tell me that's exactly what happened and it was above Arai-san's paygrade where that mandate came down. Believe me, Arai-san's ultimate decision making power is very limited. On the surface it may seem that he has a lot of power, but the ultimate decisions come from up above. I know if it were up to him, there is no way Honda Racing would have entered the F1 arena in 2015. Japanese business culture is where no means yes and yes means maybe.

I have shared a beer with Arai-san. IMO he is brilliant, tough and not a quitter. However, his hands are bound very tightly at what he can ultimately do. He has free reign inside his department as to personnel, design advancements within the PU, etc. but at the end of the day, everything is basically a committee decision. That is Honda's way. What happens outside of his department, he has very little say........

ok...Ippon to you.

What you make of http://www.f1-fansite.com/f1-news/boull ... o-improve/ ?

With all the doom and gloom around these digital pages of the Honda PU problems. Think there is truth to that?