2023 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

[Willy]

The sad truth is the RBR has already started their 2024 campaign by trying to make this year's car even faster, while Merc is still undecided on which direction to make a problematic car go fast. As Marko has pointed out recently, during the period when Merc was dominating, they had an engine that produces more hp than others. Without the HP advantage, we may not see the same Merc domination for years to come.

For 2024, I reckon what Merc can possibly hope for will be as quick as AM or Mclaren, as I believe with the same engine, teams like Mclaren may be able to out-develop Merc due to their vast experience with aero and wind tunnel.
Merc may have to accept to copy RBR, AM and Mclaren design philosophy

Not sure how you are bringing engines up in discussion, when Mercedes have been the best placed Mercedes engine runner for the last 10 years. And even with a "problematic car", they're still 150 points up the road from the only now quicker McLaren.

See this is the problem, if you throw the baby out with the bath water you miss the nuance every team is juggling with.
McLaren were in crisis 4 months ago. Senior Staff relieved of duties, finishing stone last or very close to that in some races.
Nobody can clearly say if the update is Prodromou or Key's work. But Key is gone. They sacrificed their first half of the season to bring this update, which also created upheavel.

What I believe we are seeing is a concertina effect in the development race, and it solidifies towards the halfway point when teams look to the following year or invest in consolidating this years positioning. So what is the point of wasting resources on this years car when it can be put to more efficient use into a car that wont be compromised?

To simplify @CHT's point, will Mercedes get back to winning ways against Red Bull with engines on par?

There was always a 'What if" in those years of Mercedes dominance when Red Bull didn't have an equal engine. With Mercedes having dropped the ball and behind, now what is the right question, "when" or "if" Mercedes can catch Red Bull.

[ValeVida46]

Bull with engines on par?
There was always a 'What if" in those years of Mercedes dominance when Red Bull didn't have an equal engine. With Mercedes having dropped the ball and behind, now what is the right question, "when" or "if" Mercedes can catch Red Bull.

2017 and 2018 were years Ferrari were essentially matching Mercedes on horsepower and Honda being in the same ball park in 2020 and 2021.
https://the-race.com/formula-1/honda-be ... des-level/

I guess the "what if" is relative.

Mercedes in my view aren't behind because their PU doesn't have an advantage or is nigh on equal to the Honda PU today. I don't think anyone would seriously consider this a reasonable argument for their present form. Simply, they made mistakes on chasing zero pod, compounded by the porpoising last year. That end of season victory in Brazil properly sent them down the rabbit hole, which gave conviction to keep with this idea.

That has translated in a car that would be compromised to revert to a different ethos such as RB/Ferrari/AM/Macca for the simple reason it is very far removed from anything else.
Each and every race the drivers have said the rear end is weak, we all know the W14 has a fundamental issue there, as it keeps appearing regardless of the track. It doesn't help that they need to add more downforce to help tame the problem, and requires more front downforce to balance the platform which then affects their speeds on the straight.

[DGP123]

Also seems very much like this is going to be the way for the next few years, with teams halting development to try "undercut" rivals the following season depending on relative standings to performance

Yes. Someone said these regulations are so tight though, that can Newey really extract more for next year, or are RB near the ceiling of performance with this concept? How much more wriggle room or scope is there for RB to push the boundaries?

If it is the case, that RB are unable to progress, and with everyone else converging by copying RB, or, by other means, could we realistically see one of the tightest grids in 24’? Could we see a similar scenario to 2012, with seven different drivers, winning the first seven races?

[Willy]

Bull with engines on par?
There was always a 'What if" in those years of Mercedes dominance when Red Bull didn't have an equal engine. With Mercedes having dropped the ball and behind, now what is the right question, "when" or "if" Mercedes can catch Red Bull.

2017 and 2018 were years Ferrari were essentially matching Mercedes on horsepower and Honda being in the same ball park in 2020 and 2021.
https://the-race.com/formula-1/honda-be ... des-level/

I guess the "what if" is relative.

Mercedes in my view aren't behind because their PU doesn't have an advantage or is nigh on equal to the Honda PU today. I don't think anyone would seriously consider this a reasonable argument for their present form. Simply, they made mistakes on chasing zero pod, compounded by the porpoising last year. That end of season victory in Brazil properly sent them down the rabbit hole, which gave conviction to keep with this idea.

That has translated in a car that would be compromised to revert to a different ethos such as RB/Ferrari/AM/Macca for the simple reason it is very far removed from anything else.
Each and every race the drivers have said the rear end is weak, we all know the W14 has a fundamental issue there, as it keeps appearing regardless of the track. It doesn't help that they need to add more downforce to help tame the problem, and requires more front downforce to balance the platform which then affects their speeds on the straight.

Ferrari is not Red Bull. So the 2017 and 2018 comparison is not the point of the discussion.

https://www.autoracing1.com/pl/312701/m ... -mercedes/

But he admitted to Bild am Sonntag newspaper: "It was surprising to us that the Mercedes has become significantly more powerful over the winter.

"The way Hamilton went past Albon at the start of the first race was terrifying," he added. "But that's just the way it is and we have to see how we can deal with that in the short term."

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/hond ... s/4829780/

Honda admits it has been "surprised" by the progress made by main Formula 1 rival Mercedes during the lockdown.

Yamamoto says that in Austria the latest Honda performed as expected, but main rival Mercedes had made an unexpected step.

"In practice we were seeing what we expected from the dyno, especially on the long runs as well," he noted.

"So everything was as we had planned, but we were surprised by the progress Mercedes has made, especially in qualifying, so we were a little bit surprised by the gap we had to them.

[SiLo]

The cost cap is going to see teams give up far earlier in the season because they cannot spend on in-season development. So the sport will eventually turn into who gets it right first and that's the season over. The good thing is, the wind tunnel and CFD limits appear to be working. So the grid being more unstable should end up being good for the sport.

[Bill]

Bull with engines on par?
There was always a 'What if" in those years of Mercedes dominance when Red Bull didn't have an equal engine. With Mercedes having dropped the ball and behind, now what is the right question, "when" or "if" Mercedes can catch Red Bull.

2017 and 2018 were years Ferrari were essentially matching Mercedes on horsepower and Honda being in the same ball park in 2020 and 2021.
https://the-race.com/formula-1/honda-be ... des-level/

I guess the "what if" is relative.

Mercedes in my view aren't behind because their PU doesn't have an advantage or is nigh on equal to the Honda PU today. I don't think anyone would seriously consider this a reasonable argument for their present form. Simply, they made mistakes on chasing zero pod, compounded by the porpoising last year. That end of season victory in Brazil properly sent them down the rabbit hole, which gave conviction to keep with this idea.

That has translated in a car that would be compromised to revert to a different ethos such as RB/Ferrari/AM/Macca for the simple reason it is very far removed from anything else.
Each and every race the drivers have said the rear end is weak, we all know the W14 has a fundamental issue there, as it keeps appearing regardless of the track. It doesn't help that they need to add more downforce to help tame the problem, and requires more front downforce to balance the platform which then affects their speeds on the straight.

Ferrari is not Red Bull. So the 2017 and 2018 comparison is not the point of the discussion.

https://www.autoracing1.com/pl/312701/m ... -mercedes/

But he admitted to Bild am Sonntag newspaper: "It was surprising to us that the Mercedes has become significantly more powerful over the winter.

"The way Hamilton went past Albon at the start of the first race was terrifying," he added. "But that's just the way it is and we have to see how we can deal with that in the short term."

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/hond ... s/4829780/

Honda admits it has been "surprised" by the progress made by main Formula 1 rival Mercedes during the lockdown.

Yamamoto says that in Austria the latest Honda performed as expected, but main rival Mercedes had made an unexpected step.

"In practice we were seeing what we expected from the dyno, especially on the long runs as well," he noted.

"So everything was as we had planned, but we were surprised by the progress Mercedes has made, especially in qualifying, so we were a little bit surprised by the gap we had to them.

merc pu was derating a lot in the straight thats why Nando was easy picking by Max in the straight.their deployment is not as good as the Hondas .i hear they also have cooling issues so they detune their mguh during race.

[ValeVida46]

Ferrari is not Red Bull. So the 2017 and 2018 comparison is not the point of the discussion.

https://www.autoracing1.com/pl/312701/m ... -mercedes/
But he admitted to Bild am Sonntag newspaper: "It was surprising to us that the Mercedes has become significantly more powerful over the winter.

"The way Hamilton went past Albon at the start of the first race was terrifying," he added. "But that's just the way it is and we have to see how we can deal with that in the short term."

You are quoting Marko, and this is only about Red Bull and nobody else?

Here is the power estimations for each season...By way of the argument that "Mercedes only won because of the engine" it really didn't, 2014 and 15 I can agree, they were miles ahead. But the rules were changed in end 2014 and the gap closed year on year. So to surmise their 7 titles down solely to the engine, is plain wrong. As it is to ignore Ferrari, as their engine was more powerful for a couple years. If indeed it was the engine, then a more powerful engine would have done better. Unless this only a Red Bull comparison? For what reason you'd only isolate 1 team to compare would be anyone's guess.

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/hond ... s/4829780/
Honda admits it has been "surprised" by the progress made by main Formula 1 rival Mercedes during the lockdown.

Yamamoto says that in Austria the latest Honda performed as expected, but main rival Mercedes had made an unexpected step.

"In practice we were seeing what we expected from the dyno, especially on the long runs as well," he noted.

"So everything was as we had planned, but we were surprised by the progress Mercedes has made, especially in qualifying, so we were a little bit surprised by the gap we had to them.

Merc had a well known qualy mode, Horner complained about it's legitimacy many times until it was banned. But a 9bhp difference depending on elevation and humidity does not equal "won because of the engine", Yamamoto did emphasise "especially in qualifying". Nor does it explain the deficiencies due to Mercedes chosen route in the new concepts of 2022 onwards.
If Merc had a 10bhp power advantage over Honda today they would still be miles behind. Which really should give indication as to where the issues they are struggling with are.

Waylaying conversation into conflating 2 different eras as equal, is misguided for a variety of reasons.
Budget caps.
18 inch tyres.
Porpoising.
Predominance of floor aerodynamics relative to the previous era, and a host of other unique circumstances.

[Willy]

Ferrari is not Red Bull. So the 2017 and 2018 comparison is not the point of the discussion.

https://www.autoracing1.com/pl/312701/m ... -mercedes/
But he admitted to Bild am Sonntag newspaper: "It was surprising to us that the Mercedes has become significantly more powerful over the winter.

"The way Hamilton went past Albon at the start of the first race was terrifying," he added. "But that's just the way it is and we have to see how we can deal with that in the short term."

You are quoting Marko?

Here is the power estimations for each season...By way of the argument that "Mercedes only won because of the engine" it really didn't, 2014 and 15 I can agree, they were miles ahead. But the rules were changed in end 2014 and the gap closed year on year.


https://i.redd.it/lflcyd6qd9981.png

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/hond ... s/4829780/
Honda admits it has been "surprised" by the progress made by main Formula 1 rival Mercedes during the lockdown.

Yamamoto says that in Austria the latest Honda performed as expected, but main rival Mercedes had made an unexpected step.

"In practice we were seeing what we expected from the dyno, especially on the long runs as well," he noted.

"So everything was as we had planned, but we were surprised by the progress Mercedes has made, especially in qualifying, so we were a little bit surprised by the gap we had to them.

Merc had a well known qualy mode, Horner complained about it's legitimacy many times until it was banned. But a 9bhp difference depending on elevation and humidity does not equal "won because of the engine", Yamamoto did emphasise "especially in qualifying". Nor does it explain the deficiencies due to Mercedes chosen route in the new concepts of 2022 onwards.
If Merc had a 10bhp power advantage over Honda today they would still be miles behind. Which really should give indication as to where the issues they are struggling with are.

Waylaying conversation into conflating 2 different eras as equal, is misguided for a variety of reasons.
Budget caps.
18 inch tyres.
Porpoising.
Predominance of floor aerodynamics relative to the previous era, and a host of other unique circumstances.

I have never seen content go so off track and fill pages.

Marko talks straight and usually says the way things are, which is what Honda also re-iterated. Simple fact was, Honda PU was not on par with Mercedes even in 2020 or 2021. If, but, could, should, doesn't change the fact. Nobody other than Honda and Mercedes know what the exact power difference was. Credit to Mercedes the way they kept developing the engine! Things changed with E10.

[ValeVida46]

I have never seen someone go so off track and fill pages with irrelevant content.

Really?

To simplify @CHT's point, will Mercedes get back to winning ways against Red Bull with engines on par?

There was always a 'What if" in those years of Mercedes dominance when Red Bull didn't have an equal engine. With Mercedes having dropped the ball and behind, now what is the right question, "when" or "if" Mercedes can catch Red Bull.

You brought it up, and I'm replying specifically at the point you raised.
But clearly no point continuing conversation if you feel the reply had no relevance to your post, as it clearly did.

[flexcon]

Simple fact was, Honda PU was not on par with Mercedes even in 2020 or 2021.

check out the Honda PU thread. some conjuring in there but the consensus seems to be the Honda engine was on par with Merc at minimum and in terms of deployment was better at higher altitudes in 2021. It was a balls out engine.

It's actually a fascinating thread that covers the third parties involved, such as Honda Jet division for their MGUH, HRC for the careful plating to reduce temps in the chamber etc.

In 2020 IICR, the Honda engine was also on par but a rule change or clarification on how the flow of energy between MGU-H and K meant the Honda combustion process was sub optimal as it was designed to increase energy regeneratio rather than peak performance. So 2020 was frustrating as no changes could be made,

[Willy]

I have never seen someone go so off track and fill pages with irrelevant content.

Really?

To simplify @CHT's point, will Mercedes get back to winning ways against Red Bull with engines on par?

There was always a 'What if" in those years of Mercedes dominance when Red Bull didn't have an equal engine. With Mercedes having dropped the ball and behind, now what is the right question, "when" or "if" Mercedes can catch Red Bull.

You brought it up, and I'm replying specifically at the point you raised.
But clearly no point continuing conversation if you feel the reply had no relevance to your post, as it clearly did.

You are responding with assumptions in a way to play down the power difference that existed, which no one knew the exact quantum of, other than speculations. More relevant point of discussion is pertaining to the future of Mercedes competitiveness.

[Willy]

Simple fact was, Honda PU was not on par with Mercedes even in 2020 or 2021.

check out the Honda PU thread. some conjuring in there but the consensus seems to be the Honda engine was on par with Merc at minimum and in terms of deployment was better at higher altitudes in 2021. It was a balls out engine.

It's actually a fascinating thread that covers the third parties involved, such as Honda Jet division for their MGUH, HRC for the careful plating to reduce temps in the chamber etc.

In 2020 IICR, the Honda engine was also on par but a rule change or clarification on how the flow of energy between MGU-H and K meant the Honda combustion process was sub optimal as it was designed to increase energy regeneratio rather than peak performance. So 2020 was frustrating as no changes could be made,

It was 2021.
https://www.planetf1.com/news/fia-techn ... -red-bull/

[organic]

Simple fact was, Honda PU was not on par with Mercedes even in 2020 or 2021.

check out the Honda PU thread. some conjuring in there but the consensus seems to be the Honda engine was on par with Merc at minimum and in terms of deployment was better at higher altitudes in 2021. It was a balls out engine.

It's actually a fascinating thread that covers the third parties involved, such as Honda Jet division for their MGUH, HRC for the careful plating to reduce temps in the chamber etc.

In 2020 IICR, the Honda engine was also on par but a rule change or clarification on how the flow of energy between MGU-H and K meant the Honda combustion process was sub optimal as it was designed to increase energy regeneratio rather than peak performance. So 2020 was frustrating as no changes could be made,

It was 2021.
https://www.planetf1.com/news/fia-techn ... -red-bull/

That article is inaccurate. The rule change in question happened between Australia 2020 (cancelled) and Austria 2020 (race 1). There was no directive that harmed Honda mid-2021



https://members.f1-life.net/report/97040/

Asaki (head of Honda power unit development):

Last year, the influence of the TD was great. What was allowed in Australia was restricted in Austria. Most of us had no effect, but there was some control. It was banned in Austria, and we wanted to say that we weren't trying to hide, and that we had been consulting with the FIA for a long time, but it didn't work and we were greatly affected. There was one thing. At the time of the Australian Grand Prix, the idea was that the amount of electricity generated would be sufficient, but due to that, at the time of the Austrian GP, the amount of electricity generated (from the MGU-H) was insufficient during the season. I had to get off to a good start. That had a big impact.

[Juzh]

Simple fact was, Honda PU was not on par with Mercedes even in 2020 or 2021.

check out the Honda PU thread. some conjuring in there but the consensus seems to be the Honda engine was on par with Merc at minimum and in terms of deployment was better at higher altitudes in 2021. It was a balls out engine.

It's actually a fascinating thread that covers the third parties involved, such as Honda Jet division for their MGUH, HRC for the careful plating to reduce temps in the chamber etc.

In 2020 IICR, the Honda engine was also on par but a rule change or clarification on how the flow of energy between MGU-H and K meant the Honda combustion process was sub optimal as it was designed to increase energy regeneratio rather than peak performance. So 2020 was frustrating as no changes could be made,

It was 2021.
https://www.planetf1.com/news/fia-techn ... -red-bull/

There was another clarification in between cancelled 2020 melbourne GP and first race in Austria, which was addressing ferrari's antics but honda got caught in the crossfire, honda themselves even said as much back then, but I can't find that article right now. 2020 honda was no match for merc at the time, be it totla power or deployment, not even after party modes were banned from monza onwards. 2021 engine was better, but merc's was better still.

I actually believe 2023 merc is more powerful than 2023 honda by very tiny amount, however honda's energy recovery is sufficiently better to offset it. In terms of power Ferrari is the top engine this year, and was already last year, no doubt.
really difficult to put any numbers to it because differences are so small, but if I had to:
ferrari
merc -8 hp
honda -12 hp
renault -15 hp
For example basically every car on the grid was driving away from perez in silverstone on non-drs straights, and sainz was gaining 1-1.5 tenths even with perez at 0.4-0.5s slipstream.

[Rootsap]

https://youtu.be/hjUqMk5kzOs

JA confirms all focus being shifted to next year