This forum contains threads to discuss teams themselves. Anything not technical about the cars, including restructuring, performances etc belongs here.
Has there been a race all year that required more than 1 stint on hards? Red Bull did a 23(?) lap Sprint race on medium tires. Why would they consider needing 2 sets of hards for the race?
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To be fair the decision was already made on Friday FP1, when they went out on mediums, while other teams used hards.
It is quite possible that RedBull realized during sprint that M-H-M will be better, but tyre allocation was already fixed by then.
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There was always a built-in assumption that they were going to do the sprint on the medium coming into the weekend, if they were saving 2 hards for the race. It seems like a logical inconsistency to acknowledge that the medium would survive 23 laps and then not plan on using it for the race. Of course, nothing can be done now, and I understand that it was a mistake, but still, it was really a mess
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What is there to laugh about? Horner already admitted that they thought it would be much warmer on Sunday and than was
the Hard a better option for them. That's why they change plans. What a mess??
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To be fair the decision was already made on Friday FP1, when they went out on mediums, while other teams used hards.
It is quite possible that RedBull realized during sprint that M-H-M will be better, but tyre allocation was already fixed by then.
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There was always a built-in assumption that they were going to do the sprint on the medium coming into the weekend, if they were saving 2 hards for the race. It seems like a logical inconsistency to acknowledge that the medium would survive 23 laps and then not plan on using it for the race. Of course, nothing can be done now, and I understand that it was a mistake, but still, it was really a mess
.
What is there to laugh about? Horner already admitted that they thought it would be much warmer on Sunday and than was
the Hard a better option for them. That's why they change plans. What a mess??
Having his hand forced with Norris getting close by luck of the pitstop and garage positions, I think it was a good strategical and tactical choice by Max to push to the limit and over it. He did move under braking in the end, but honestly I don't see him as predominantly at fault. But the penalty was a non-penalty in the end and he got 11p no less.
Norris lost his temper multiple times and failed to prepare his overtake across no less than 3 DRS zones and choosing to complain on the radio instead, I'm not impressed by that. Everyone knows Max races hard and over the limit, you've got to be prepared for that
With a few more days and seeing clips from this race and previous overtakes on this corner, this aligns with my feeling on this incident.
F1's epicenter is Britain. No two ways about it.
F1 media, TV media, Social media, newspapers :
It's going to be 'brit hero' against the sinister 'dutch villain'.
it's going to be the 'Austin powers' against 'Goldmember'.
In my opinion the race will be an anti-climax to however much build there’ll no doubt be.
I’ll be surprised if the McLaren is anywhere near the Red Bull at Silverstone
F1's epicenter is Britain. No two ways about it.
F1 media, TV media, Social media, newspapers :
It's going to be 'brit hero' against the sinister 'dutch villain'.
it's going to be the 'Austin powers' against 'Goldmember'.
yeah exactly, Lando will surely want to prove a point against Max and in front of his public, while Max, well he'll go full gas no matter what...I have similar vibes as 2021 in a way, can well see another contact between the two of them
I’ll be surprised if the McLaren is anywhere near the Red Bull at Silverstone
Why? I don't see any reason why they wouldn't be competitive at Silverstone as well. I read that it's expected to be a one-stop race, so this I think is actually better for McLaren since they seem to have better tire deg at the moment.
I’ll be surprised if the McLaren is anywhere near the Red Bull at Silverstone
Why? I don't see any reason why they wouldn't be competitive at Silverstone as well. I read that it's expected to be a one-stop race, so this I think is actually better for McLaren since they seem to have better tire deg at the moment.
I feel Red Bull have an advantage in high speed corners and top end straight line speed- a great combo for Silverstone.
Marko has confirmed car updates for Silverstone as well as a previous member had posted.
But I agree, the deg could bring Mclaren back into play towards the end of the stints
But for out right speed I think it’ll be all Red Bull.
I feel Red Bull have an advantage in high speed corners and top end straight line speed- a great combo for Silverstone.
Marko has confirmed car updates for Silverstone as well as a previous member had posted.
But I agree, the deg could bring Mclaren back into play towards the end of the stints
But for out right speed I think it’ll be all Red Bull.
There is a pattern of 'fastest in the early part of the race, then even-out in the middle, then become slower than Mclaren - all due to the car not keeping tyres optimum as fuel load comes down' , and it has been consistently that way, on a variety of tracks of late (ever since Japan, I think).
This could be a fundamental baked-in problem of the RB20 and can't be 'solved once and for all' within the season, I think :
Deg was indeed bad for RB20 yesterday. What confuses me even more is the explanation for the 'setup-change' between Sprint and Quali, made by Marko+Horner - "it was for race pace".
The notion that it's the aero-imposed stiff suspension that causes accelerated tyre wear, seems more likely, with every passing race.
Full tank fuel + aero load => the total pre-loading in the springs is keeping the tyres happy when subjected to varying impacts from the road - bumps, dips and kerbs. The moment fuel load is removed, the total preloading becomes lesser and springs are way too stiff to keep the tyres happy in relation to the varying impacts from the load => glaringly evident in slow speed ckts like Monaco, the chicane kerbs in Imola/Canada etc - tyres aren't pressed back enough into the ground during rebound, even resulting in actual bouncing ("jumping like kangaroo"). This doesn't affect in high speed corners even if kerb riding is involved, as the pre-loading is back to necessary levels thanks to the aero-press at high speed.
And because the stiffness of suspension is imposed due to floor design and ride -height windows, this might not be something that can be solved by 'development' - this very likely is a baked-in limitation coming from the RB19-->RB20 design change.
I feel Red Bull have an advantage in high speed corners and top end straight line speed- a great combo for Silverstone.
Marko has confirmed car updates for Silverstone as well as a previous member had posted.
But I agree, the deg could bring Mclaren back into play towards the end of the stints
But for out right speed I think it’ll be all Red Bull.
There is a pattern of 'fastest in the early part of the race, then even-out in the middle, then become slower than Mclaren - all due to the car not keeping tyres optimum as fuel load comes down' , and it has been consistently that way, on a variety of tracks of late (ever since Japan, I think).
This could be a fundamental baked-in problem of the RB20 and can't be 'solved once and for all' within the season, I think :
Deg was indeed bad for RB20 yesterday. What confuses me even more is the explanation for the 'setup-change' between Sprint and Quali, made by Marko+Horner - "it was for race pace".
The notion that it's the aero-imposed stiff suspension that causes accelerated tyre wear, seems more likely, with every passing race.
Full tank fuel + aero load => the total pre-loading in the springs is keeping the tyres happy when subjected to varying impacts from the road - bumps, dips and kerbs. The moment fuel load is removed, the total preloading becomes lesser and springs are way too stiff to keep the tyres happy in relation to the varying impacts from the load => glaringly evident in slow speed ckts like Monaco, the chicane kerbs in Imola/Canada etc - tyres aren't pressed back enough into the ground during rebound, even resulting in actual bouncing ("jumping like kangaroo"). This doesn't affect in high speed corners even if kerb riding is involved, as the pre-loading is back to necessary levels thanks to the aero-press at high speed.
And because the stiffness of suspension is imposed due to floor design and ride -height windows, this might not be something that can be solved by 'development' - this very likely is a baked-in limitation coming from the RB19-->RB20 design change.
Just a theory.
It is not only a feature of the RB20. You already noticed it in 2022 when at the end of the season Mercedes pretty much closed the gap and often had similar or sometimes faster pace vs RB18 on lower fuel.
It is inherent to their suspension setup, but it is more clear now Mclaren has closed the gap.
I feel Red Bull have an advantage in high speed corners and top end straight line speed- a great combo for Silverstone.
Marko has confirmed car updates for Silverstone as well as a previous member had posted.
But I agree, the deg could bring Mclaren back into play towards the end of the stints
But for out right speed I think it’ll be all Red Bull.
There is a pattern of 'fastest in the early part of the race, then even-out in the middle, then become slower than Mclaren - all due to the car not keeping tyres optimum as fuel load comes down' , and it has been consistently that way, on a variety of tracks of late (ever since Japan, I think).
This could be a fundamental baked-in problem of the RB20 and can't be 'solved once and for all' within the season, I think :
Deg was indeed bad for RB20 yesterday. What confuses me even more is the explanation for the 'setup-change' between Sprint and Quali, made by Marko+Horner - "it was for race pace".
The notion that it's the aero-imposed stiff suspension that causes accelerated tyre wear, seems more likely, with every passing race.
Full tank fuel + aero load => the total pre-loading in the springs is keeping the tyres happy when subjected to varying impacts from the road - bumps, dips and kerbs. The moment fuel load is removed, the total preloading becomes lesser and springs are way too stiff to keep the tyres happy in relation to the varying impacts from the load => glaringly evident in slow speed ckts like Monaco, the chicane kerbs in Imola/Canada etc - tyres aren't pressed back enough into the ground during rebound, even resulting in actual bouncing ("jumping like kangaroo"). This doesn't affect in high speed corners even if kerb riding is involved, as the pre-loading is back to necessary levels thanks to the aero-press at high speed.
And because the stiffness of suspension is imposed due to floor design and ride -height windows, this might not be something that can be solved by 'development' - this very likely is a baked-in limitation coming from the RB19-->RB20 design change.
Just a theory.
Yea I read your theory when you first posted it. It’s a great theory.
In my opinion the high speed nature of Silverstone should allow Verstappen to gap the field before he encounters any kangaroos
Saying that, it was close in Imola so who knows, after contradicting myself I’ll leave it there and just wait till Sunday
Marko reveals after Verstappen disaster: "It was the mother's fault"
02.07.24, 06:10
After the Red Bull disaster at the home race in Spielberg (Max Verstappen 5th, Sergio Perez 7th), mastermind Helmut Marko reveals what went wrong at the Austrian GP and what needs to be changed in Silverstone (Sun., 4 p.m.). And he comments on the renewed conflict between Horner and Wolff.
oe24: Mr. Marko, how did you digest the Austrian GP weekend?
MARKO: The heat was enormous - atmospherically and on the race track. It was very intense. The drop in temperature is good now.
oe24: When we last spoke a week ago, you had hoped that Mercedes would take the points away from your pursuers. That worked...
MARKO: That's right. But a win would of course have been better. After all, we have extended our lead in the World Championship in both the drivers' and constructors' championships. That was the second best solution.
"It was pathetic how Norris acted on the radio"
oe24: After the race, you said that the crash between Max Verstappen and Lando Norris was unnecessary. Do you still see it that way now that you've looked back?
MARKO: It was pathetic how Norris acted on the radio. But things like that happen, and I would write it off as a racing accident, although Norris was more likely to have overstepped the mark.
oe24: Could Norris' lack of routine be a factor?
MARKO: Definitely.
oe24: What about the friendship between Verstappen and Norris, which was put on ice by the crash?
MARKO: Norris' comments that Max should apologize are not very helpful. But they will meet to talk things out.
oe24: Wasn't there an opportunity to do that on the flight back?
MARKO: No, they usually fly together, but this time they were flying separately. So Max had a quiet return flight.
oe24: Can you explain the chain of errors, unusual for Red Bull standards, that caused Max to concede victory in the final phase despite being in the lead?
MARKO: It started with the botched pit stop, then Max suddenly had no grip with the new set of tires. And then Norris was suddenly in the DRS area...
oe24: What exactly went wrong during the pit stop?
MARKO: A nut was stuck - but that can happen. We made over 50 pit stops in the two-second range, some of which decided between victory and defeat. So I'm not blaming anyone, that's easy to put aside.
oe24: Verstappen, it is said, suddenly makes mistakes under pressure...
MARKO: As I said: Max was out with a used set of tires and suddenly had no grip. He didn't go off the track, it just cost time.
"We'll hit back in Silverstone"
oe24: Are there consequences for the next GP in Silverstone?
MARKO: We'll hit back, we'll bring an upgrade. I also always say: Our goal is the world championship title, and the Austrian GP helped us get there.
oe24: Will Mercedes be a serious contender for victory in the next races?
MARKO: They're on the way up. But I don't think they're capable of winning on their own. They still need something.
oe24: Topic in Spielberg: Christian Horner's jabs at Toto Wolff and Verstappen's dad Jos weren't very serious, were they?
MARKO: I agree with you. I'm not playing these games. We want to win the world championship, and to do that we have to pool all our strengths.
oe24: Couldn't Verstappen lose interest in the face of these arguments?
MARKO: Once again: As long as Red Bull gives Max a car capable of winning and there is a certain harmony in the team, he will always fulfill his contract.
oe24: And if Mercedes gives him a car capable of winning?
MARKO: If, if, if... At the moment, that is not the case.
oe24: Please allow me to ask one more question about the Red Bull engine project. They say there are problems...
MARKO: Guess who is spreading such rumors. We are right on schedule.
oe24: Is there a plan B if the new engine (for the new 2026 regulations) doesn't work after all?
MARKO: There isn't. Our engine has to work or get working. So many factors play a role, such as the fuel, the battery, etc. It will be exciting to see who will really be at the front. In terms of horsepower, we will definitely be there.
Panel Voting
"There is a pattern of 'fastest in the early part of the race, then even-out in the middle, then become slower than Mclaren - all due to the car not keeping tyres optimum as fuel load comes down' , and it has been consistently that way, on a variety of tracks of late (ever since Japan, I think).
This could be a fundamental baked-in problem of the RB20 and can't be 'solved once and for all' within the season, I think :"
There's another elemental dimension that could also promote this scenario.
If the engine is run at full mandatory maximum fuel flow some of the time, then sub maximum at particular periods of race to affect overall pace ....
Theres lucid discussion of this in review of McLaren MP4/4 ... with Honda turbo engine in 1988 ? Restricted by end of turbo era fuel capacity, they ran it with full "bleed" fuel allowance first part of race, knowing that they'd never get to the end. Qualifying on pole, wound up for first third of race, economy to the flag.
Extrapolate that to now, start race with notional 10Kg less fuel on board (projection, I don't know this) move away from competitors with lower weight (start weight with fuel etc doesn't have a minimum, as such) full power 1st third, diminishes as laps pass, target fuel usage comes down etc, leaving lack of options later in race.
Less weight at start, highest available fuel flow to begin, makes a powerful pace advantage. Depends if other teams look at this in such an extreme way, or run more distributed power "curve" for race distance. Can't really work if you start back in pack in regard to sub optimum fuel start weight.
Austria specific, less potential regen per lap, high gain from following competitors with DRS etc, starts looking vulnerable doesn't it ?
