2013 German GP - Nurburgring

[stefan_]

I still think they should have left Kimi out and not do that last stop. He was 13 seconds away at that time.

It was a close call, they probably went for the safe route rather than what happened last week - if he didn't pit, Kimi could have lost ~1s/lap and still mantain the lead through the end, but they couldn't know how fast the tires will go down and if they would end up losing 2s/lap. But then again, it's easy to judge how wrong or right the teams have been on strategy after the race ended.

[iotar__]

I still think they should have left Kimi out and not do that last stop. He was 13 seconds away at that time.

Like in Silverstone? And just because he mentioned this "possibility". And just because it didn't happen and you can safely blame it? You really think that? On 17 laps older tyres than Vettel? He had optimal strategy, are there any doubts about it? Fresher, faster tyres, small gap, one driver in front with team orders in his pocket.

This deserves special mention:
"We got held behind the Mercedes after the first pit-stop and that has cost three or four seconds and this is where we lost the race," Boullier told Sky Sports F1. "It was first place lost."

Wait a minute... Was it after or before the safety car that nullified gap to front two drivers for Raikkonen which I'm sure was bigger than 3-4 seconds. Secondly Vettel and Grosjean were also stuck after the third pitstop. If you start lying you can't suddenly stop.

[gandharva]

I still think they should have left Kimi out and not do that last stop. He was 13 seconds away at that time.

Like in Silverstone?

Very different situation imho.

But I think it's like stefan said. They simply went the safe route because they already screwed him in Silverstone.

[muhammadtalha-13]

Now when is the last time RedBull messed up a pit stop like that? How easy is it for the team to make that stop take just 2 seconds longer and not lose a place to anyone nor get Vettel and Webber fighting, cause we all know what happens then. Much more damage then a futile few seconds.

You mean they botched a botched pit stop ?

After watching their past record of treating Webber when he has a chance to fight against Vettel, i am sure they wanted to delay the stop, may be 2 to 3 seconds, but it went a little too far away.

[Juzh]

They never mess up Vettel's stop I would say

They only mess up his gearbox and kers.

Dind't they mess Vettel's stop at title decider Brasil last year?

Oh yeah, 45s pitstop in brasil. Thanks for reminding me about that.

I still think they should have left Kimi out and not do that last stop. He was 13 seconds away at that time.

Like in Silverstone? And just because he mentioned this "possibility". And just because it didn't happen and you can safely blame it? You really think that? On 17 laps older tyres than Vettel? He had optimal strategy, are there any doubts about it? Fresher, faster tyres, small gap, one driver in front with team orders in his pocket.

This deserves special mention:
"We got held behind the Mercedes after the first pit-stop and that has cost three or four seconds and this is where we lost the race," Boullier told Sky Sports F1. "It was first place lost."

Wait a minute... Was it after or before the safety car that nullified gap to front two drivers for Raikkonen which I'm sure was bigger than 3-4 seconds. Secondly Vettel and Grosjean were also stuck after the third pitstop. If you start lying you can't suddenly stop.

For once, I agree with you.

[ChrisDanger]

I still think they should have left Kimi out and not do that last stop. He was 13 seconds away at that time.

On the last lap before Kimi's stop Vettel had just cleared traffic and closed in by a second, and the gap in seconds was equal to the number of laps remaining. Kimi's tyres would have got worse quicker than Vettel's. Kimi asked for new tyres anyway, as he felt he wouldn't be able to finish the race on that set. We heard the team ask if he could, he answered "I already told you," then he pitted.

[turbof1]

I still think they should have left Kimi out and not do that last stop. He was 13 seconds away at that time.

On the last lap before Kimi's stop Vettel had just cleared traffic and closed in by a second, and the gap in seconds was equal to the number of laps remaining. Kimi's tyres would have got worse quicker than Vettel's. Kimi asked for new tyres anyway, as he felt he wouldn't be able to finish the race on that set. We heard the team ask if he could, he answered "I already told you," then he pitted.

He litteraly told that? Vintage Kimi .

I think they did the right thing. If the pace was there to keep going, Surely Kimi would have noticed and be convinced it would work. Also, Kimi had radio problems and communication was tricky (the radio only worked with a certain radius from the pit wall). Too much uncertainty; the strategy they ran was viable anyhow.

What happened at Great Brittain though was more clear cut. That was a missed oppertunity for a free pitstop.

[abw]

I think Lotus made a few bad decisions earlier in the race--only evident in hindsight--but in the final laps, after all that was history, they dithered about one lap too long before explicitly moving RG aside. There were radio troubles for both drivers, and there was back-marker traffic. But ultimately, they let Raikkonen sit behind Grosjean and try to pass him with DRS for about one lap before they officially moved RG over. I admire them for giving RG the opportunity to beat his teammate (and he could probably have defended the position for the rest of the race), but I wonder what might have happened if Lotus had just moved RG as soon as KR caught up. I think Raikkonen would have caught Vettel.

[banibhusan]

As the season progresses more and more, I am getting the feeling that I don't really have to watch the races anymore. It's just like 2000-2004. You go out with your friends and have fun on the weekend. You come back home, check the f1.com and bingo, Sabastian Vettel has won the race as usual. I guess watching Dexter would have made much more sense than watching the race. May be it's the weekend effect.

On a serious note, the RB9 is getting better and better every race. They are right there fighting for the win every race. No matter what are the conditions or who are their opponents. Vettel is literally toying with his opponent's morale. On the other hand, the Merc, the Ferrari and the Lotus perform only when the conditions are suited to their car. The Ferrari team, especially IMO, has become a laughing stock lately. God knows when will they be sure about their updates. The strategic blunders at the Lotus pit wall also makes me wonder whether Kimi has already signed for RBR. No comments on the Merc. They are simply lost with Alice in the wonderland.

[iotar__]

I think Lotus made a few bad decisions earlier in the race--only evident in hindsight--but in the final laps, after all that was history, they dithered about one lap too long before explicitly moving RG aside. There were radio troubles for both drivers, and there was back-marker traffic. But ultimately, they let Raikkonen sit behind Grosjean and try to pass him with DRS for about one lap before they officially moved RG over. I admire them for giving RG the opportunity to beat his teammate (and he could probably have defended the position for the rest of the race), but I wonder what might have happened if Lotus had just moved RG as soon as KR caught up. I think Raikkonen would have caught Vettel.

Boll...s. Look, Raikkonen DID NOT LOSE A MILLISECOND this race, he wasn't fast enough on softs, simple as that. To overtake you had to close the gap and try to pass. BTW did you see him complaining? He was bizarrely enough complaining about another excuse - additional pitstop.

- He wasn't fast enough on softs - 1st stint, and I don't mean it as a dig at Raikkonen, it's a fact in this race
- Grosjean was held up by him, no team orders that would have given Lotus chance for the win
- only safety car allowed him to close the gap
- he was given best strategy, his team-mate worst, on purpose, is that even debatable? One driver was fast on softs, one wasn't,
- he wasn't fast enough in the second stint on softs, right behind two drivers, fresher and faster tyres
- he got team orders in his favour

So what, after all that they somehow had second thoughts, after throwing away win (season, two seasons) for one driver they changed their mind? It doesn't make sense and it didn't happen. Without team-orders, safety car and team-orders that didn't happen (1st stint) he had no business fighting for the win. But you ignore all that and invent excuses in the form of some made up not quick enough team orders. Really? This is some next level poo. So spare everyone fairy tales of how they treat drivers equally and give them chances after demonstration of something completely opposite. See: points above, it all did happen.

It's the funniest possible scenario, even Raikkonen fans should know that Grosjean's win would have been beneficial for Kimi. If he hadn't it wouldn't have mattered - team orders. They'd have "won" either way. And why didn't they go for that? Various reasons. Plus it's a perfect representation of what's wrong with Lotus the last two seasons, it doesn't get any better and it was only a matter of time. Boullier and Kimi pretend it didn't happen and Red Bull folks laughing, as opposed to "racing" part of the team, if it even exists. Gifted win for Red Bull by Lotus.

I think I'd prefer it finished that way than Grosjean's winning, it's just so damn funny. The only problem, Alonso losing more to Vettel. Also: no Silverstone kerbs, no tinkering by teams - no tyre explosions. Ferrari strategy - I'm not sure whether they would have finished where they finished anyway.

[abw]

Within a lap after his final pit stop, KR was ~0.5 sec faster per lap than RG, and RG was not really all that threatening to SV. Not saying it would have been the right call, and certainly not saying it would have been an obvious call, but I think KR would have had a chance to run down and pass SV if he'd been waved past RG a lap sooner. It's an opinion, and I know an opinoin lacks technical rigor. So I'll leave it at that.

[Juzh]

Within a lap after his final pit stop, KR was ~0.5 sec faster per lap than RG, and RG was not really all that threatening to SV. Not saying it would have been the right call, and certainly not saying it would have been an obvious call, but I think KR would have had a chance to run down and pass SV if he'd been waved past RG a lap sooner. It's an opinion, and I know an opinoin lacks technical rigor. So I'll leave it at that.

Grosejan wasn't able to pass vettel for many laps when within drs range and vettel's malfunctioning kers. What makes you think raikonnen would be able to pass him? Catching and actually passing are two very different things. His option were loosing pace as well.

[abw]

RG couldn't pass SV because he's not as good a driver, his car's not as good, and he was on the same tires. My thinking is that if KR had been waved past RG as soon as he'd caught up, he'd have been on fresher options when he caught SV and had a few more opportunities for a (lame but effective) DRS pass. Again, this is all speculation in hindsight. I don't fault Lotus for making the call they made at that point (I do fault them for some calls earlier in the race). Regardless, it's a good result for SV, and a decent result for KR, and RG. I thought it was fun to watch.

[WhiteBlue]

Did the german guy (cant remember name) who were doing the Q&A openly ask Vettel how does it feel to have Kimi as team mate next year? Sound like its a done deal or something?

Kai Ebel from RTL. A terrible person. As one would expect he behaved the idiot he is. That question had no place in a podium celebration. Seb was irritated and I believe a bit angry as well. A podium is supposed to be celebration and about the race, not about silly season. It is obviously not decided or at least not free for publication.

[ringo]

RG couldn't pass SV because he's not as good a driver, his car's not as good, and he was on the same tires. My thinking is that if KR had been waved past RG as soon as he'd caught up, he'd have been on fresher options when he caught SV and had a few more opportunities for a (lame but effective) DRS pass. Again, this is all speculation in hindsight. I don't fault Lotus for making the call they made at that point (I do fault them for some calls earlier in the race). Regardless, it's a good result for SV, and a decent result for KR, and RG. I thought it was fun to watch.

Well RG was a better driver in this race than Kimi. I don't think you can say he couldnt pass because he's no good.
None of them stood a chance. The redbull's potential was being hindered by the tyres from the start of the season.
If you put better tyres on it, then more of the potential will be revealed.