2010 regulation row on £40m budget cap

[outer_bongolia]

The easiest way to ensure savings is getting rid of this over-regulated system. With all the incredible limitations, teams have to play with minuscule protrusions wasting incredible amounts of money.

If you want to save money, FIA should just set the outer dimensions and minimum weight of the car. The teams could just go in their own direction and be creative overall again - instead of looking for little loopholes in the rules.

Another piece of regulation that I don't get is the ban on customer cars. FIA should be enabling monocoque sharing/sales. That will reduce the R&D costs for teams.

Of course I am not against regulations like making the engines and gearboxes last more races (5 races for engines?), no in-season tire developments (what you get in march is what you'll have in november), no refueling (already going to happen).

[Chaparral]

Agree Mack The Knife thats just the way it goes - (most) of the majors will be there next year with no two tiered regs and a stepped down budget over a period - I welcome new teams thats for sure so the 'who cares' comment from me was a throw away - I think the bigger issue is the governance of the regs and how they are implemented ongoing - and to be honest its been a one way street (for whatever reason) for a long while - the teams have the (product) lets have some consultation please - Williams is a prime example Frank and his team are there to race first and foremost and thats the core of the series in all honesty

[donskar]

F1 is not supposed to compete on downforce generation by hugely expensive 100% scale rolling road wind tunnels. The rules should be written such that the cars with the best fuel economy will finish first. So the focus should be on drag reduction, maximising KERS, introducing HERS and improving combustion efficiency. This year it is all about the timely introduction of the DDD but hopefully next year less trivial reasons for competitiveness should prevail.

Ahhhhh we are so blessed to receive yet another tablet from Mount Sinai. Thank you for piercing the darkness of our ignorance with the illumination of your insight.

[radu]

Sorry if this comment seems silly: I'm just wondering though, you are Renault, known the world over for making and selling cars and you consistently get your ass handed to you by Red Bull, a maker of soft drinks!!! that uses your engine??? Or you are Toyota and you lose out to a tiny team called Williams that uses your engine???

I know that the well-versed F1 fans think about the history of the sport and of the smaller teams, such as Williams, but the average Joe Schmoe still sees Toyota losing to Williams and Renault losing to Red Bull, or Ferrari losing to Brawn, or BMW losing to everybody. ---, we might as well start buying Chinese cars...people might start thinking.

Where is the incentive for big manufacturers to stay in a sport that is increasingly being regulated in such a way to have car makers embarrassed on a regular basis and in front of huge audiences by (sorry for this) a bunch of nobodys?

I want to see a sport when the best of the best CAR MANUFACTURERS go up against each other, no caps, no holds barred: Ferrari vs. Mercedes vs. Toyota vs. Renault vs. BMW vs. Porsche, etc... Enough of Mercedes engines inside a --- Tata car, really.

I hope they all quit F1 and they start a real manufacturer's series, balls out.

[WhiteBlue]

The main issue here was to get the big teams to cut resources to a point where new teams would enter into the championship and swell the ranks to 13 teams. We will see if the FIA will achieves this objective. I do not particularly care if Ferrari is on board or not. And the FOTA fans can admire holy Luca all they want but generally it will be known who will be responsible and owed credit for the success if it is achieved.

[gridwalker]

Sorry if this comment seems silly: I'm just wondering though, you are Renault, known the world over for making and selling cars and you consistently get your ass handed to you by Red Bull, a maker of soft drinks!!! that uses your engine??? Or you are Toyota and you lose out to a tiny team called Williams that uses your engine???

I know that the well-versed F1 fans think about the history of the sport and of the smaller teams, such as Williams, but the average Joe Schmoe still sees Toyota losing to Williams and Renault losing to Red Bull, or Ferrari losing to Brawn, or BMW losing to everybody. ---, we might as well start buying Chinese cars...people might start thinking.

Where is the incentive for big manufacturers to stay in a sport that is increasingly being regulated in such a way to have car makers embarrassed on a regular basis and in front of huge audiences by (sorry for this) a bunch of nobodys?

I want to see a sport when the best of the best CAR MANUFACTURERS go up against each other, no caps, no holds barred: Ferrari vs. Mercedes vs. Toyota vs. Renault vs. BMW vs. Porsche, etc... Enough of Mercedes engines inside a --- Tata car, really.

I hope they all quit F1 and they start a real manufacturer's series, balls out.

Williams were the most successful team of the 1990s, with a smattering of championships before that, so I wouldn't exactly call them a nobody ... They may not be a household name, but the sport wouldn't be where it is today without them and teams like them.

Sure, I get your point, but the problem with manufacturer led championships is that manufacturers have a habit of leaving a sport when it is generating bad publicity for them : independents tend to stick around through thick & thin.

Independent led series have historically been more stable & manufacturer domination in F1 is only a recent phenomenon. As recently as 1999, Ferrari was the only Manufacturer team in F1 : the sport certainly seemed to do well enough without Toyota, Renault & BMW running their own teams.

[DaveKillens]

I do not favor any series controlled by the manufacturers. In the end, they structure the series only to serve themselves, and their marketing goals. The fans lose out. Almost all successful races and series are run by organizations focused on the racing, and the fans. And if a manufacturer does choose to participate, it's at their own peril. There are no guarantees in racing.

[gcdugas]

Independent led series have historically been more stable & manufacturer domination in F1 is only a recent phenomenon. As recently as 1999, Ferrari was the only Manufacturer team in F1 : the sport certainly seemed to do well enough without Toyota, Renault & BMW running their own teams.

In 1999 you had Ford via Stewart and Merc via Mac. As for your assertion that the independents have more commitment to F1 than the manufacturers, a quick look at the past 25 years tells us...

Jordan? (took care of their people and ensured succession)
MF1? (took care of their people and ensured succession)
Spyker? (took care of their people and ensured succession)
Minardi? (took care of their people and ensured succession)
Benetton? (took care of their people and ensured succession)
Tyrell? Gone, nothing left.
Aguri? Gone, nothing left.
Arrows? Gone, nothing left.
Brabbham? Gone, nothing left.
Ligier? (took care of their people and ensured succession)
Prost? Gone, nothing left.
Footwork? Gone, nothing left.
Simtek? Gone, nothing left.
Pacific? Gone, nothing left.
Larousse? Gone, nothing left.
Forti? Gone, nothing left.
BAR? (took care of their people and ensured succession)

Manufacturers to leave during the same period...

Renault left after 1997 and returned 2002/3
Ford/Jag left 2004 (took care of their people and ensured succession)
Honda left 2009 (took care of their people and ensured succession)
BMW left after 1986 and returned 2000

So it could be argued that the manufacturers are far better F1 citizens because when they leave they often return and when they leave they take care of their people by ensuring succession 4 out of 4 times whereas the vaunted independent teams left nothing but ashes and debt 10 out of 17 times and 5 of the 7 times when they "took care of their people" were just renaming the team. The other 2 times they were rescued by a manufacturer (Bar/Honda and Benetton/Renault). Conversely it was also 2 times when a manufacturer was rescued by an independent (Jag/Red Bull, Honda/Brawn).

Ferrari, Toyota, and Mercedes have all been very magnanimous in their engine supply deals towards Jordan/Spyker/MF1/FIF1, Williams and Brawn, often on short notice. Does the FIA care to mention these "sport preservation efforts" when they slam the manufacturers? No, rather the opposite, the FIA incredibly exalts the teams that the manufacturers rescued as being more committed and reliable competitors than the very ones who rescued them. This is pure delusion and mental illness.

These historically verifiable facts prove that the oft repeated mantra of the FIA "that manufacturers have a habit of leaving the sport" is a proven lie. But what would you expect from Max... the truth? Don't make me laugh. But the really inexcusable part is that people simply repeat the FIA lies without thinking. This is beyond me. Do people have no memories? If the FIA said that Toyota has won 4 championships in the last 5 years would we believe them? No because it is simply not true. Well the FIA assertion about manufacturers coming and going willy-nilly is also not true.

This is getting wearying. Enough of that lie... at least make them invent a new lie.

[Giblet]

"Tyrell? Gone, nothing left."

This is wrong.

British American Racing bought Tyrell's team/debt and team in 1997, and got the ~$48,000,000 bond as part of the deal so they would not have to purchase a new one to enter F1.

So the team currently leading the WDC and WCC is the ghost of Ken Tyrell knocking everyone on their asses from beyond.

Mercedes, Ford, Honda, Renault, Yamaha, and Porsche have all entered and left F1 as a manufacturer or engine supplier at least once. Honda 3 times now.

If you count engine supply, the whole list becomes very skewed. And engine supply should count, as a good engine like the Hondas or Renaults of the 90's, makes or breaks your team.

[WhiteBlue]

The difference between a privateer like Williams and Renault is that Williams will only stop racing if they are dead or bust. Renault might just call it a day because the management philosophy changed or racing will not satisfy their marketing strategy any more.

In that light Ferrari have never been a manufacturer. They are a racing team with a sports car division that earned some of the money for racing and got the PR from racing for selling sports cars. They certainly are different to Toyota, Renault, BMW, Mercedes and previously Honda. Racing and sports cars are their core businesses and not the wheels for the masses. The other difference is that they were never alimented by their share holders with hundred of millions annually as the manufacturer teams were and are.

There is no doubt in my mind that Ferrari would be very nice to have in F1 but not at the price of having Luca di Montezemolo run F1.

[WhiteBlue]

dp

[gcdugas]

"Tyrell? Gone, nothing left."

This is wrong.

British American Racing bought Tyrell's team/debt and team in 1997, and got the ~$48,000,000 bond as part of the deal so they would not have to purchase a new one to enter F1.

So the team currently leading the WDC and WCC is the ghost of Ken Tyrell knocking everyone on their asses from beyond.

Mercedes, Ford, Honda, Renault, Yamaha, and Porsche have all entered and left F1 as a manufacturer or engine supplier at least once. Honda 3 times now.

If you count engine supply, the whole list becomes very skewed. And engine supply should count, as a good engine like the Hondas or Renaults of the 90's, makes or breaks your team.

OK, I admit that I goofed on Tyrell but the rest of the list is accurate. And I must say you are grasping at straws if you include Yamaha as a manufacturer or if you want to talk of Porsche who left 25 yrs ago and even when they were in F1 they were only a semi-works engine supplier in partnership with TAG. And Honda has left just twice in the period in question.

On the whole I stand by my assertion that the manufacturers are better F1 citizens than the "independents". And to support this I also mentioned the efforts they have made to help teams like Jordan/Spyker?MF1/FIF1, Williams and Brawn.

Times have changed. The kit car Cosworth era is forever gone and has been ever since Renault introduced the turbos. F1 was secondary to LMP back then also. The ascendancy of F1 to the "pinnacle" coincided with the influx and participation of the manufacturers.

We should stop repeating the FIA smears, slights and outright lies. They have no basis in historical reality. Max and Bernie should be thankful to the manufacturers. People want to see MB vs BMW vs Renault vs Ferrari, vs Toyota. That is what gives F1 its cache, not Red Bull, Brawn, STR, or FIF1. Williams is in the middle because of their pedigree. Nevertheless the manufacturers are being treated shabbily by Max and Bernie and things tend to come around and bite you in the rear. Payback is a bitch as they say.

[Agerasia]

Something got me thinking.
The teams under the 40 million budget would have most likely bought engines to stay under that figure but would have had freedom in engine development.
Currently most engines used in F1 are from the manufacturers who want to spend over the budget so no engine development.
See the catch 22 here anyone?

[gridwalker]

My point wasn't based on "FIA lies", nor was it based on F1 (as F1 has only recently become a manufacturer dominated series) ...

I was looking at history based on WRC, ITCC & BTCC (where manufacturers have left en-masse) ...

Sure, independent teams may leave F1 when it is no longer viable for their business to continue, but there has always been a steady stream of replacements for as long as it has been commercially viable). Conversely, there are only so many auto-manufacturers in the world & the teams they create are based solely on their marketing requirements of the time, relying upon a budget allocated by management who do not necessarily care about the requirements of FOM or the millions of fans tuning in to see the competition.

Relying solely upon a group of companies who can (like Honda) fold cards and leave the table, knowing fully well that it won't damage their core business interests, IS BAD BUSINESS SENSE!!!

Who would you rely upon in a time of crisis? The people who rely upon you for their livelihood, or the people who rely upon you to make you look good?

Yeah, I didn't think so either ...

[donskar]

gridwalker, good points, but please consider [another spin]:

My point wasn't based on "FIA lies", nor was it based on F1 (as F1 has only recently become a manufacturer dominated series) ...

I was looking at history based on WRC, ITCC & BTCC (where manufacturers have left en-masse) ...

Sure, independent teams may leave F1 when it is no longer viable for their business to continue, but there has always been a steady stream of replacements for as long as it has been commercially viable). Conversely, there are only so many auto-manufacturers in the world & the teams they create are based solely on their marketing requirements of the time, relying upon a budget allocated by management who do not necessarily care about the requirements of FOM or the millions of fans tuning in to see the competition.
[I'd like to believe that Red Bull could represent an alternative to small teams and manufacturers -- a rich multinational that competes for the visibility and general marketing value. Such a company would be most likely to enter an F1 populated with "big-name" rather than by teams unknown to the general public.]

Relying solely upon a group of companies who can (like Honda) fold cards and leave the table, knowing fully well that it won't damage their core business interests, IS BAD BUSINESS SENSE!!!
[Can't argue with that, but the flip side bears consideration: new teams who enter the sport only because it has suddenly become affordable are unlikely to have the financial staying power to survive rough times. And none of the new entrants (not even Lola) are gambling their core business in order to enter F1.]

Who would you rely upon in a time of crisis? The people who rely upon you for their livelihood, or the people who rely upon you to make you look good?
[But . . . in a time of crisis, won't Richards go back to Aston and his other ventures; Lola back to LMP and other endeavors; ISpeed back to F3, etc, etc?]

Yeah, I didn't think so either ...