Mercedes GP 2011

[Richard]

Merc bought a winning team? I hope they weren't that naive.

They bought a mid ranking team that just happened to have a perfect alignment of stars in the first half of 2009 before it reverted to its usual mid table position by the end of that season.

The comparisons with RB are valid, they took a while to turn from mid table Jaguar to their current status.

[Ferraripilot]

I actually don't think it's premature to discuss the future of this team after 1012. Who's gonna run it, as it will certainly not be the three-pointed star,when I cannot foresee Daimler wasting more money and time on this clutter?

Ny predictions is that they will ditch it, selling off to David Richards or another pretender, while MHPE will return to McLaren with their best engines.

X, there is zero logic in that position, especially with the investment MB is putting into the team. Who invests millions and sets a short deadline? Especially given the current economic climate.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

FerrariPilot

In Fairness to X he is only repeating what Zetsche said at the announcememt.
2010 to 2012 wass the plan, but plans are there to be changed if need be.
And Zetsche was pretty much forced into saying and agreeing a time scale due to the Labour union honcho that was nipping at his heels.

[xpensive]

...
In Fairness to X he is only repeating what Zetsche said at the announcememt.
2010 to 2012 wass the plan, but plans are there to be changed if need be.
And Zetsche was pretty much forced into saying and agreeing a time scale due to the Labour union honcho that was nipping at his heels.

Well, plans and plans JET, the best laid plans might falter, Mercedes still have McLaren to lean on and give the xtra 25 hp.

[Ferraripilot]

And Zetsche was pretty much forced into saying and agreeing a time scale due to the Labour union honcho that was nipping at his heels.

I thought the team wasn't taking any cash from their end anyway?

[Ferraripilot]

Mercedes still have McLaren to lean on and give the xtra 25 hp.

This X, is just false. I have flywheel dyno'd -on a DTS flywheel dyno- enough Ferrari engines and two Cosworth DFV engines to know that even in those motors there is never more than a 5-7bhp difference. Although I have to laugh at every Ferrari motor they made up until the 80s, not laughing at the quality or power output, but their claimed power output was always 10% higher than that of what is actually being produced. Maserati and Lamborghini were just as guilty.

[xpensive]

I don't agree pilot, if you produce 80-some engines a yer,of course you give the best to your ownt eam.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

Surely the FIA would have something to say about that.

[Dragonfly]

..............
Ny predictions is that they will ditch it, selling off to David Richards or another pretender, while MHPE will return to McLaren with their best engines.

There's no guarantee whatsoever that their new engine will be the best.

[Ferraripilot]

I don't agree pilot, if you produce 80-some engines a yer,of course you give the best to your ownt eam.

Based on what facts? I can tell you 100% factually that a blueprinted stock Ferrari carbureted 512BB engine will produce between 355-360bhp at the flywheel every single time, and those engines are not built to anywhere near the same exacting standards an F1 motor is subjected to. A Porsche 911 3.2 motor stock Euro spec will make between 235-240bhp every single time. If an F1 motor is 1% different from one to the other, I would be utterly astonished due to their blueprinting standards not to mention their requirement to be spot-on exact due to remarkable forces taking place at 18k rpm. In the physical universe we occupy, what you are suggesting is highly improbable.

[marcush.]

At the end it does not really matter who is getting the best (I bet MGP is getting those,whatever the spead there is)as the installtion of all Mercedes engines differ in Airbox ,Cooling ,plumbing,physical installtion ,transmission and exhaust system .
So in an educated guess -they never run exactly in the same conditions and a comparison is almost impossible..
Or would someone believe octopus ,midship and cannon style exhausts would not have significant ionfluence on the torque curve produced ?Combiner this various transmission efficiencies ,differnt cooling systems and Airflows through differnet cooling matrix and differning airbox designs and you end up with a situation that is surely not equal to those three teams whatever the tolerance of the base engine may provide

[xpensive]

Get real, of course there is a spread and of course MGP gets the best parts.

My new mistress says so too and she's an oracle.

[munudeges]

Based on what facts? I can tell you 100% factually that a blueprinted stock Ferrari carbureted 512BB engine will produce between 355-360bhp at the flywheel every single time, and those engines are not built to anywhere near the same exacting standards an F1 motor is subjected to.

Based on straightforward statistics and the way the world works.

The flaw in this argument, of course, is that these types of engines are built well, well, well within tolerances. The bell curve for them will be pretty much flat otherwise you're going to get problems that should be obvious, especially when you're producing a lot of these engines. With a Formula 1 engine you are always pushing boundaries - right now engine manufacturers are trying to get every ounce of power out of an engine within a limited set of restrictions. Tolerances are obviously going to get finer. They also obviously aren't going to make hundreds or thousands of them. As sure as eggs is eggs you're going to get a pronounced bell curve. MHPE don't employ 500 odd people for nothing.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

So despite ferraripilots post, where he eloquently put forward very valid points, you still believe mercedes cherry pick an engine with up to 25 hp more?

Like he said, the tolerances at this level are minuscule. The difference is negligible, allied to marcush post of variances within the design and to actively seek a better engine purely on hp would be a fools errand.

What if that engine had a shorter life expectancy?
What if it had a higher cooling requirement?
What if the engine couldn't perform to designated customer spec?
What if the discrepancy allowed a fatter torque curve?
What if it allowed greater gearbox life?
What if it allowed greater fuel economy?

Looking at final hp figures is but 1 of many differentiators. And to go into the depth required to get the "best" engine per gp weekend, mercedes hpe would require alot more than 2 or 3 weeks to decipher who gets what.
Furthermore, force India don't seem to be making any noise about their allocation as they allegedly did with Ferrari.

So where is the evidence other than ambitious and mischievous speculation?

[xpensive]

I do believe that MGP is getting special treatment, if I was in Daimler's position, I would see to that anyway.

You can probably reckon with 20-30 Hp more than McLaren's.