Mercedes GP W02

[CyleB]

I remember people once wondered about whether this logo was a 3D manipulation or not.

I am guessing not?

wow i never would have guessed that

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

Was asking Scarbs a few questions relating to the W02, and he said Mercedes do have various options available to them.

Conventional cooling is one, they could ditch their novel double radiator layout. But that may mean a longer wheel base with a diffeent radiator set up. At present it is thought Mercedes are losing around 0.3 seconds a lap due to their cooling "louvres" or vents, due to them not being aero efficient.

A proper Exhaust blown diffuser is another avenue for Mercedes. As scarbs put it, this is "drag free downforce" Mercedes could use for the second half of the season. Even after the off throttle ban there will be some aero benefit for the team in relation to their current system.

Then we look at the eternal riddle of Mercedes front wing. A more efficient front wing "will take less energy out of the airflow to the rear". I doubt wether Mercedes will change much in this area as it seems they are wedded to this iteration of wing design the last 30 months. Yet an option to them it remains.

Finally we have a change in suspension as a resolution to their tyre problems. Pick up points, bearings, camber or even a total change moving to Push rod from the current pull rod.

[marcush.]

First of all ,they surely should know by now what really is the root of the problem they have with rear tyre wear .

Not being able to change weight distribution dry or filled up it is clear that only CofG height ,suspension and aero can be used to cure the problem.

Throwing away all your work mid season and build a completely new gearbox with pushrod layout seems outlandish to me ...they had their most competitive weekend with Schumacher just this weekend and Rosberg led a Grandprix on merit already...
They have to find a workaround and understand how all the others do not suffer with rear tyre degradation before introducing some fancy innovations.
As long as this is not solved they ineviatbly have to opt for shorter stints ,saving as many fresh tyres as possible for the race and rely on their ability to overtake.

of course they are the ones who know just how much a ruling out of extreme throttle maps would hurt them or even render their car concept obsolete.

[JohnsonsEvilTwin]

You cannot just change from push to pull rod without a whole new set of problems.
Basically, the change would take alot of resources for no guaranteed benefit.


What we can say will definatly give them pace is if the ditched the cooling vents, and implemented an EBD.
Why Mercedes havent even tested an EBD is beyond me, but I think it would be useful to them.

These 2 things could give them 0.5 seconds a lap. Then you can start to tinker with your suspension.

[dren]

This team has had tire issues for as long as I can remember. I fully expect the W03 to have...you guessed it, tire issues.

[andrew]

What we can say will definatly give them pace is if the ditched the cooling vents, and implemented an EBD.
Why Mercedes havent even tested an EBD is beyond me, but I think it would be useful to them.

Probably because there is no point wasting resources on something that is going to be banned.

The outirght ban doesn't start until 2013 but the effectivness of the EBD will be greatly reduced as of Silverstone. Probably best to wait and see where they stand relative to the other teams come Silverstone and then make a judgement on the EBD.

[i70q7m7ghw]

What we can say will definatly give them pace is if the ditched the cooling vents, and implemented an EBD.
Why Mercedes havent even tested an EBD is beyond me, but I think it would be useful to them.

Probably because there is no point wasting resources on something that is going to be banned.

The outirght ban doesn't start until 2013 but the effectivness of the EBD will be greatly reduced as of Silverstone. Probably best to wait and see where they stand relative to the other teams come Silverstone and then make a judgement on the EBD.

We will probably see EBDs return to 2010 configurations for this season, so Merc probably won't have many changes to make.

[andrew]

Precisely my point. They are just being patient and using their heads.

I'll tempt fate and say that Merc could be a bit of a spoiler for McLaren and Ferrari, at least for a couple races whilst others are dusting off their 2010 diffusers.

[xpensive]

You cannot just change from push to pull rod without a whole new set of problems.
...

And this we know how?

...
What we can say will definatly give them pace is if the ditched the cooling vents, and implemented an EBD.
Why Mercedes havent even tested an EBD is beyond me, but I think it would be useful to them.

These 2 things could give them 0.5 seconds a lap. Then you can start to tinker with your suspension.

And this we know how?

As I recall JET, last week you claimed that an FEE was in the pipeline, what happened to that solution?

[marcush.]

[...]
They communicate tyre issues but as the tyre is the same with everyone it is an application issue really.The interface car tyre is not fully understood.If this really is a design issue is debateable.

As the absolute grip is ok for them -see qualy times- I assume the temperatures at the rear do not stabilize on the required level and so the hot pressure is rising to levels high enough to compromise inflated shape.In Qualy thats not a big issue ,you start a bit on the low side and forget about a 3rd or 4 th quick lap in one stint but for the race the issue will creep back in .
So inevitably you will end up with a oversteery car in the race .what to do ? soften the rear ? do this and your setup is going towards understeer .The softer rear will destroy your rake at higher speeds.

To get the rear tyres down in temperature I would first of all look into compliance in the rear suspension .Less flex should help them position the tyre closer to their desin settings ..this should help reduce temperature buildup.It could be a bearing it could be a flimsy suspension member or a weakness in the installation itself that is contributing enough ...

[dren]

Remember during testing when the car found a bunch of time by moving the exhaust to its current configuration, along with a few other aero bits?

I still think this car was built for their exhaust solution and diffuser design. I am curious if a Red Bull exhaust solution would really improve the car or not. Surely if other smaller teams have similar solutions now, Mercedes would have had it.

The #1 knock to performance in a race right now is rear tire wear. That is followed by inefficient cooling solutions, if the gills are indeed losing them 0.3 seconds a lap.

On the bright side, the car seems to have a killer DRS. It also handles a lot better than last year's car.

[marcush.]

the slots in the bodywork are inevitably causing drag so ...if you want to remain as quick as before you need to crank back angle of attack.
So to me priority 1 is improve the cooling as this is catching two birds with one stone.-better aero ,more downforce ,more power better efficiency-possibly a shift in downforce to the rear ...improving their balance?

[bot6]

Add to that the fact that they will probably get more power out of the engine once the cooling issues are sorted out, as they will be able to run more optimal engine maps. And it will also help with KERS reliability.

So yes, they tried something new with the double decker rads this year, and it's still a work in progress. But if they manage to make it work by the end of the year, they will have an advantage next year and even more with the new engines after that, as they will probably require more compact cars.

[dren]

Add to that the fact that they will probably get more power out of the engine once the cooling issues are sorted out, as they will be able to run more optimal engine maps. And it will also help with KERS reliability.

So yes, they tried something new with the double decker rads this year, and it's still a work in progress. But if they manage to make it work by the end of the year, they will have an advantage next year and even more with the new engines after that, as they will probably require more compact cars.

That's what I'm thinking too. Hopefully they get it all sorted out before the year is up.

Has anyone seen pictures up close of the Merc's rear suspension? Looking at the Ferrari double sprung anti roll bar set-up on Scarbs site, that sounds like a good fit. Possibly the team is running too stiff in the rear for fast speed stability and it's eating up the tires because of traction problems in the slow corners?

[aral]

What point have you made gilgen?

It seems you are more interested in disproving me rather than putting forward your own idea.

Further to this, EBD's aren't nullified. They have been reigned in off throttle. They still work when the throttle is on, which is 70% of the time.

I don't put forward my "ideas", as I am not an engineer, and do not know what would work. But I bow to your superior knowledge.
And of course the EBD will be nullified, as its main benefit is in the corners.