COTA Austin - construction and infrastructure

[Mr Alcatraz]

So the public should pay for something a lot of them probably don't care about?

The idea is that it does benefit the public even if they personally have no interest...It's the same everywhere.

You are correct Sir, @ xpensive when you lived in the USA are you the guy I saw driving the Black Turbo Cararra on I 405
with the license plate that read YRUPOOR Corporate America pays for almost all of its sporting facilities I have the distinction of having a beautiful New Baseball Stadium named Petco Park I just wish I had bought stock before Pets replaced children for a huge sector of our society



Anyway "Circuit of the Americas" is going to succeed I Garran-damn-ty it

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DImp-oJmsfQ[/youtube]

[xpensive]

This was xactly my disappointment with living in the US, not just visiting, realizing this country was just as socialistic as where I came from, only difference was that this government spent the money on coporations and ventures, not its citizens.

[Mr Alcatraz]

This was xactly my disappointment with living in the US, not just visiting, realizing this country was just as socialistic as where I came from, only difference was that this government spent the money on coporations and ventures, not its citizens.

Do you mean in the form of tax breaks for corporations? Or the our Military Industrial complex
We still have reasonable relief for Americans that really are poor many people think too much. I'm not one of them however.

[jwielage]

I don't think that will become a great problem. The council should know on which side of the bread the butter belongs. The investment will pay back in improved employment and increased tax revenues. The special event fund was clearly invented just for such a purpose and should be applied for this case. Texas and Austin would be hard pressed to find a better case for investing in an international mega sporting event.

Classic socialist rethoric, "a public investment which will pay pack tenfold". With such argumentation, you could easily find reasons for any kind of government spending, it just so happens that F1T members enjoy Formula One, nothing else.

When the bill for the Swedish "Gripen" fighter aircraft has passed 20 billion EUR, its supporters will of course arue with the
same old song, "it has paid back tenfold", basically the same crap from the same special interests as F1T members.

@ andrew, you're my kinda guy!

You have a pretty black and white view of things. One can afford to take purely idealistic stances while sitting on the sidelines, but the fact of the matter is the United States (as are all Nations) to some degree socialist. What are you advocating, no public investments? How about the US Federal Highway Act, which created which created our system of Interstates (US equivalent of the Autobahn, which it was inspired by). At the time opponents considered the Act socialist and criticized it heavily. Has this paid of 10 fold? So unless you lie and say that it hasn't paid off, you do support some forms of social investment.

Now I'm not saying that the US Grand Prix at Austin and the US Federal Highway Act are identical situations. However it is only through the benefit of hind sight that we label certain social investments as “no brainers” that even the most idealistic “capitalist” would endorse. The fact is some social investments will pay off others will fail, only through the benefit of historical review do we know for sure.

I don’t disagree with all your points, however I object to the degree of certainty that you place in your doctrine.

[WhiteBlue]

I don't think that will become a great problem. The council should know on which side of the bread the butter belongs. The investment will pay back in improved employment and increased tax revenues. The special event fund was clearly invented just for such a purpose and should be applied for this case. Texas and Austin would be hard pressed to find a better case for investing in an international mega sporting event.

Classic socialist rethoric, "a public investment which will pay pack tenfold". With such argumentation, you could easily find reasons for any kind of government spending, it just so happens that F1T members enjoy Formula One, nothing else.

When the bill for the Swedish "Gripen" fighter aircraft has passed 20 billion EUR, its supporters will of course arue with the
same old song, "it has paid back tenfold", basically the same crap from the same special interests as F1T members.

@ andrew, you're my kinda guy!

I think this is some pretty uninformed criticism. Nobody has spoken of "tenfold". The most important point is the existence of such an event fund which has been used in the past by lots of other sporting events that do not even come near in terms of prominence and internationality with F1.

So F1 in Austin is no special case, it is simply an excellent application of an approved way to push the economy.

Second, F1 under the scheme has to demonstrate that the subsidy is earned back in taxation. That was clear from the start. So in effect all that is happening is that Austin decides to get an international event which will push its economy and it will invest all the taxes it gets over 10 years into the venture. Its a win/win proposition. Nobody can loose in the deal unless the circuit owner goes bust.

The main risk for that to happen is if some agitators succeed to shoot the scheme down with ill conceived propaganda. Comparing this kind of investment with the cost of education is comparing apples and bananas. A society needs both, education and investment. They are not the same and separately budgeted. So it is nonsense to talk about socialism. It would make more sense to prove that the Austin facility will not reach the economic benefits it projects to the authorities, but I bet the critics are not capable to do that.

[andrew]

So you think it is correct that funds that which should be spent of health, education, infrastructure etc should be diverted to a race track where there is no guarantee and the sum paid out of the public purse is recouped?

That doe not make any sense what-so-ever to me, no matter what is demonstrated by sums, which are basically (educated?) guesses.

The main risk for that to happen is if some agitators succeed to shoot the scheme down with ill conceived propaganda. Comparing this kind of investment with the cost of education is comparing apples and bananas. A society needs both, education and investment. They are not the same and separately budgeted. So it is nonsense to talk about socialism. It would make more sense to prove that the Austin facility will not reach the economic benefits it projects to the authorities, but I bet the critics are not capable to do that.

I'll just pick up on this comment for now, but the funds all come from the same place. They are not as you say seperately budgeted. At the start of the fiscal year, the local authority will have a pot of public money which has to be divided between all public services. The $40 million is coming from this public pot which leaves less funds to spend on more important and vital areas which will benefit everyone for the long term and not the few for the short term. This is the exact point that was made in this report that I posted a link to a while back.

[donskar]

Perhaps some context would be helpful. $25 million is -- strange but true -- a minute fraction of the Texas state budget. And it IS a separate budget line: it is NOT taken away from any other budget area. It is NOT as if the education budget, for example, has ben reduced in order to support the F1 effort.

Aye, but there's the rub. The economic viability of the facility and the race is NOT guaranteed. There is NO guarantee that it will be a "win-win." If YOU were the Texas parent of school-age children, you'd be facing a reduction in the education budget of billions -- BILLIONS -- of dollars. Teachers are being laid off, educational programs eliminated, class sizes ballooning. The tiny sum of $25 million could, for example, bring back 250+ teachers.

Now can you begin to understand the potential for opposition to the race/facility? I support the investment without qualification. But I understand there are often more than one intelligent, sincere position on any issue. Please excuse typos -- Jim Beam Black 8 year old bourbon is the culprit.

[xpensive]

...
So F1 in Austin is no special case, it is simply an excellent application of an approved way to push the economy.

Second, F1 under the scheme has to demonstrate that the subsidy is earned back in taxation. That was clear from the start. So in effect all that is happening is that Austin decides to get an international event which will push its economy and it will invest all the taxes it gets over 10 years into the venture. Its a win/win proposition. Nobody can loose in the deal unless the circuit owner goes bust.
...

More socialist rethoric to my mind, subsidies to push the economy in order to increase tax revenues, I've heard this song so many times in defence of the most outrageous cases of government waste that I lost count many years ago.

To my xperience, when you xamine each and every case, there's always some special interest or crooked politician behind it, who happens to like the activity in question. I believe that any event worth its xistance should support itself.

To the best of my knowledge, Formula One never had a problem with that until MrM colluded with MrE to sell out the sport's commercial rights to the profiteers. To argue that increased tax-revenues should be pissed away to those makes me sick.

Now tickets for Spa will cost me and my mistress some 900 EUR, you all agree that taxpayers should chip in as well?

...
I'll just pick up on this comment for now, but the funds all come from the same place. They are not as you say seperately budgeted. At the start of the fiscal year, the local authority will have a pot of public money which has to be divided between all public services.
...

At least over here, this has become a popular diversion from politicians to defend spending on their pet projects, "it's on a different budget!", they try to xplain as if people were stupid, that the money didn't come from the same source?

[...]

[Mr Alcatraz]

Just been put on the calender june 17th. Don't be late

[andrew]

I see no point to preach to a wall.

Preaching is never a good thing unless you are a preacher or in a popular Welsh band.

Not wanting to acknowledge that other members are making valid points is going to prevent any discussion. This is a discussion forum, not WhiteBlue says and we all blindly agree forum.

So enlighten us please oh mighty oracle. Where does extra $40 million come from? You make assumptions that this race will guarantee a sizeable return - that to me is a giant leap of faith. Astound and convince us with facts and figures.

[Giblet]

The race will present huge opportunities, and it depends on how they attempt to reap a profit.

Montreal has had the race for some time so habits are more ingrained, but major streets are shut down to traffic, and business extend their patios out to the street. The whole city gets behind it, and they had the Jazz Festival last year as well at the same time to keep the vibe going and the party atmosphere alive. It was extremely hard to not have fun, and to not spend money.

The race brings many outside visitors and gives an international flair, and not all reasons to host an event are purely financial. Nobody wants to lose money, but nobody will make money if the race weekend is not made to be enjoyable.

When I go to Austin next year, if it feels like a Caribbean beach with every single person trying to take my dollar or e NASCAR style merchandise festival I will unlikely return visit. The fact that F1 puts a pretty tight restriction on who can sell what might not sit well with crap pedallers. If you've been to an F1 race you know that the merch is limited, there aren't F1 lunchboxes and nail clippers with that say "GIT R DUN".

This wasn't an issue for Indy, as Indy is it's own brand and sells itself, and the track never relied solely on the F1 race.

[flynfrog]

so should I book my hotel or not?

[xpensive]

so should I book my hotel or not?

Don't know really, I hear the organizers have appointed Ken Anderson as Technical director and ambassador.

[Ray]

The US Government needs to budget it's money more wisely, notice I didn't say spend, but this isn't that big a deal to me. That's from a view of a non-Texan mind you so I don't know the fiscal situation of the state of Texas either so I could be completely wrong. I'm being selfish in the mindset that I'm happy it's there, it'll finally give me a chance to see Formula 1 cars in the flesh for the first time in my life. I have no idea what it's costing the people of Texas obviously but I can only hope that me going and spending money there for the weekend will somehow help any public debt that was created. I just hope that my lowered truck doesn't get too many dirty looks!

One thing we can do as a country is learn from history. We cannot afford to start wars and 'conflicts' the world over because it's simply not possible. Many European/other world empires over many years learned this long ago and it's a shame that history isn't our primary teacher any more. With the ongoing pointless wars in Afghanistan and Iraq draining money, the last thing we needed was another pointless war in Libya. Our President has shown that he's a warmonger like his predecessors and has no valid reason for being there. We've got our own problems at home and we've no right/obligation to police the world. I'm not saying the pople of Libya don't need/deserve help but it's my opinion that the people of that region that are its' surrounding neighbors should have the responsibility to keep them in line and offer assistance. I for one see no point in the behavior and swagger the US has around the world. I think we've bombed enough countries around the world over our history and we would do ourselves a huge favor by stopping our influence by force. I'm ashamed to see the gall that our politicians and military leaders show on a daily basis in relation to other countries situations. As an Iraq veteran it was the worst thing I've ever done in my life, I had no reason to be there and neither did the US military. Muhammad Ali said it best when he was sent a draft notice for Vietnam and refused to go. Now his reasons were more important to mine but I liked how he resisted going to a pointless war for his personal beliefs and how he stuck to them in the face of severe punishment. It's a shame I was so naive and didn't stand up for myself.

I can't wait to go and see the GP.

[donskar]

so should I book my hotel or not?

Yes.

You'll have great time, regardless. Check www.foodtv.com for the "Diners, Drive-ins, and Dives" in Austin. The food, music, and scenery -- race or no -- make it worth the trip.