February Test Thread

[Roland Ehnström]

A quite interesting analysis of last weeks Jerez tests. You might need to translate the website by using http://www.google.de/language_tools?hl=en (spanish >> english (or whatever you prefer))

http://www.f1revolution.com/2009/02/com ... t-de-jerez

This article is quite funny. To me those stints show that the McLaren is faster than the Renault, period. About one second a lap. But nonetheless, the article author is trying very hard to prove that these laptimes are actually good news for Renault (and that Alonso is a better driver than Hamilton).

[spaman]

I wouldn´t approve your statement. As well you could conclude, that the Renault is faster than the McLaren since the fastest Lap was on a 9 lap stint (ALO) but just a 2 lap stint (HAM).

Surely nobody knows the fuel loads or if KERS was online. This also must be taken in account for the 18/19 lap longrun.

The only thing you can tell - and that is what that spanish guy was trying - is, that Renault has a very targeted way to improve setup and performance issues.

PS: Don´t forget that McLaren was using the 2008 spec rearwing.

[spaman]

I want to add something. If you take a look at ALO's 9 lap stints and add some 0.6 sec for 8/9 more laps (4 laps = 10kg = 0,3 sec) you still would be far away from the laptimes of the longrun (I would call this big time sandbagging).

[Chaparral]

They're all sandbagging to different degrees - nothing will become obvious until the 3rd GP of the year - Melbourne will give us a hint of reality - speculation this far out is a bit pointless

[Roland Ehnström]

Look, perhaps McLaren are sandbagging even more than Renault, so that the real difference is actually 2 seconds a lap rather than one. My point is that we simply have no information about this. The only real information we have to go by are the laptimes, and if you look at them you see that Hamilton was constantly around 1 second faster than Alonso all through the day. Yes this doesn't automatically mean that the McLaren IS a faster car than the Renault, yes there may be other explanations (like McLarens use of a 2008 wing, or more fuel in the Renault, or more ballast in the Renault, or KERS, etc). But going by the information we have available, it is more probable, that the McLaren is faster than the Renault at this stage. If you come to any other conclusion from looking at these laptimes you are guilty of wishful thinking.

Note that I am a fan of F1, not a fan of McLaren or Hamilton. I actually hope that the Renault is as fast as the McLaren so that we will have a close-fought season. But sadly, the laptimes in testing so far does not point in this direction.

[mx_tifoso]

It's back...

[RacingManiac]

Any idea what those sensors are for? There's one on the podvane and one further back on the floor.

IR camera for tire temp? Probably works better than individual IR probes....

Not too surprise that the stop light is back.....IMO the system has its value, but the implementation last year was poor with little redundancy....

[mx_tifoso]

Three images from (almost) the same angle:

Toyota
http://images.gpupdate.net/large/118659.jpg

Ferrari
http://images.gpupdate.net/large/118658.jpg

BMW Sauber
http://images.gpupdate.net/large/118660.jpg

[Astro1]

First of all, it' difficult to compare times, moreover testing times without knowing what it is the teams are doing. But trying to compare a Renault in full 09 configuration to a McLaren 08 wing hybrid is simply lunacy!

I don't care what McLaren are trying or testing. Yes McLaren have suggested that they are testing an 08 wing to simulate downforce levels of their "new" yet to be seen 09 wing. Granted that they could simulate these "proposed" and "assumed" downforce levels but what of the drag.

can anybody realy without doubt say that the 09 wing McLaren mount, if it was to generate the downforce level of the 08 wing they are running, would do so with an equal drag coefficient to the 08 wing? Doubtful.

It's likely, that the wing will generate ample downforce they are planning but it's also likely that the car won't be as fast with an 09 wing generating X amount of downforce as an 08 wing generating the same due to extra drag. There is just less space per plane needing a greater angle of attack.

In other words don't try to compare the two cars until both are running 09 wings.

That said there is a big question mark about McLaren as at this point, we have yet to see a fast 09 spec McLaren.

[ISLAMATRON]

Astro1

In 2008 we all saw the difference between the McLaren Monaco & Monza spec rear wings... they were both 2008 spec wings but configured for different charecteristics.

McLaren is merely saying that they have yet to produce their 2009 high downforce Monaco spec rear wing which would be most appropriate for Jerez(a high downforce track). so therefor use a medium downforce 2008 spec wing. It makes perfect sense when you see that Mclaren wont need a high downforce rear wing until Monaco(or spain) in the middle of May.

The first 4 races are medium downforce tracks... so waste time developing a high downforce 2009 wing now when the car will be totally different a month from now?

And yes we saw a fast 2009 Spec McLaren in Portugal.

[Astro1]

No it doesn't make any sense. You can read into the tabloids and press quotes all you want but facts are facts.

McLaren can say what they want and I fully understand what they are suggesting but people's interpretation that the 08 wing and a new 09 wing will produce purely identical results is flawed.

The other teams did just fine at Jerez with their 09 wings. Or are they all running their high downforce wings? Hardly.

Again, given equal downforce levels an 08 wing will produce less drag than an 09 wing.

They can simulate "expected", downforce levels all they want for tyre heat/wear simulation work with whichever wing they want short of a park bench, but they can't simulate expected 09 wing drag with an 08 wing be it Monaco or Monza configuration. Which means a car running equal downforce with an 08 wing will be faster than a car running the same downforce on an 09 wing (maybe even a not suitable for the track rear wing).

One can just as easily take a low downforce 08 Monza wing and turn the plane up to simulate 09 downforce levels but the drag that wing would produce would make it irrational.

One could always argue for Renault using your argument that it was slower than the McLaren because they had to turn up the downforce on their low downforce 09 wing which is as you put is not favorable for Jerez and the McLaren didn't. But I'm not here to argue the pace of the car but simply to suggest that...

The McLarens pace against the Renault is not a valid argument at this point as it's not in 09 configuration it's that simple.

[myurr]

Astro1 - basically you can't read too much into test times. Full stop. What McLaren are doing is perfectly understandable and sensible as they're following their own program, developing their car to the best of their ability, and not worrying about relative times to other teams.

In Portugal they were very fast in 09 trim. In Jerez they've been very fast in hybrid trim, simulating the characteristics they expect their car to have. It's been widely rumored that other teams have diffuser extensions in the works (a la Williams and Toyota), so if McLaren are one of those teams then it makes perfect sense to run the 08 wing to help simulate the downforce gains they expect.

So what can we infer from testing thus far? Not a whole lot really, except that Renault aren't as slow as many, myself included, originally thought. I still have a gut feeling that they're a little bit behind where they would have wanted to be, but we won't really see until the first couple of races.

[Roland Ehnström]

can anybody realy without doubt say that the 09 wing McLaren mount, if it was to generate the downforce level of the 08 wing they are running, would do so with an equal drag coefficient to the 08 wing? Doubtful.

I very much doubt that McLaren would waste a full week of testing with a wing that has a downforce/drag coefficient far off from what they will ever race in 2009. Once again: I expect the teams to run their cars in as close to race-spec as possible during pre-season testing, in order to get as much RELEVANT information as possible out of the tests. If the 2008 rear wing produces a lot more downforce and/or less drag than what they expect their 2009 high downforce rear wing to produce, it simply wouldn't make sense to test with it!

We'll see in some weeks who is right, just remember where you heard it first.

[Astro1]

If the 2008 rear wing produces a lot more downforce and/or less drag than what they expect their 2009 high downforce rear wing to produce, it simply wouldn't make sense to test with it!

If you are simply evaluating tyre performance why not?

Again I was expecting a biased response from a McLaren audience about my post that generaly stated nothing bad of McLaren. But the fanboys will see it differently.

All I'm saying is don't get so overly hyped by the McLaren pace and start comparing it to others such as Renault, Ferrari etc. It's not the 09 configuration and until it is...you just don't know. You can bend over backwards trying to say that the 08 wing is no different than a wing that is not yet made, but it's not gonna happen.

[kilcoo316]

First of all, it' difficult to compare times, moreover testing times without knowing what it is the teams are doing. But trying to compare a Renault in full 09 configuration to a McLaren 08 wing hybrid is simply lunacy!

I don't care what McLaren are trying or testing. Yes McLaren have suggested that they are testing an 08 wing to simulate downforce levels of their "new" yet to be seen 09 wing. Granted that they could simulate these "proposed" and "assumed" downforce levels but what of the drag.

can anybody realy without doubt say that the 09 wing McLaren mount, if it was to generate the downforce level of the 08 wing they are running, would do so with an equal drag coefficient to the 08 wing? Doubtful.

It's likely, that the wing will generate ample downforce they are planning but it's also likely that the car won't be as fast with an 09 wing generating X amount of downforce as an 08 wing generating the same due to extra drag. There is just less space per plane needing a greater angle of attack.

In other words don't try to compare the two cars until both are running 09 wings.

Good point, well made.


McLaren have yet to produce this 2009 wing - and at this stage are *assuming* they can replicate the d/f levels of their 2008 wing.

A wise man once said: "assumption is the mother of all f**k ups..."



Anyway, the 2008 wing will have much better L/D figures than a 2009 wing - simply because it has a wider wing span. They can try to match 2008-2009 downforce figures, they can try to match 2008-2009 drag figures - but they simply cannot match both at the same time. Anyone that thinks otherwise could do with brushing up on the equations pertaining to lift dependent drag.