Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

[santos]

I think they are doing something illegal with the PU personally. But that's purely opinion.

Funny how easy it is to say that must be something illegal.. Also very funny that this suspicion comes after two wins from Ferrari.

[Polite]

It was just an idea to cover off if everybody is getting caught up on the engine.

I think they are doing something illegal with the PU personally. But that's purely opinion.

Not that it matters in terms of the championship as they are going to lose both significantly. I think if they were ahead or close there would be a lot more uproar from people like Mercedes.

Mercedes and Renault are uproaring to FIA already, and also Rbr
It's really strange how those who won 6 years in a row always think that if they win that is for their cleverness, while if Ferrari wins then they are cheating.

[subcritical71]

Is there not a regulation that prohibits harvesting(thru the mguk) while ON throttle?

no there is not
(unless such has been introduced recently)

we have seen one manufacturer's telemetry showing such harvesting

Just to followup on Tommys' point, in the TERS thread I posted some information and a link to a paper that describes at least the research that was performed with the help and support of Ferrari. It goes into great detail on what is allowed and not allowed as well as the different control systems strategies that can be employed. In my opinion, from what is available in the public domain, Ferrari are pushing the envelope on how to maximize the engine on the software side.
.
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=5751&p=828971&hilit ... ch#p828971

Very interesting dissertation I've only just started to read that I thought I'd share with everyone. This thesis was written in 2018 with the help and support of Ferrari. I'm only about 20 pages in after a quick scan through, but it seems very well written and offers a glimpse of what is allowed and not allowed.

If the driver is not requesting full power, the control system must deliver the amount of power requested by the driver, and the energy management system can only decide how to split it between the ICE and the MGU-K. Conversely, if the driver is requesting maximum power, the regulations allow the energy management system to decide the amount of propulsive power to provide and the split between the actuators. The degree of freedom offered by the thrust controller allows to trade off lap time against energy consumption and cope with the finite size of the battery and the fuel consumption limit of 105 kg per race.

https://www.research-collection.ethz.ch ... sAllowed=y

[Tommy Cookers]

at some partial powers ICE driving the MGU-K gives the driver all the power he can use plus some free power to the ERS store
(though not all that power is free)
at these times the PU efficiency is improved ie the car will do a better race for the same fuel consumption

isn't this what the Prius been doing since 1997 ?
(ok the same 'race' for reduced fuel consumption)

[ENGINE TUNER]

Is there not a regulation that prohibits harvesting(thru the mguk) while ON throttle?

no there is not
(unless such has been introduced recently)

The harvesting by the K while under power/throttle telemetry wasn’t shown by the manufacturer but by a LOCAL to that manufacturer F1 site/magazine.
Harvesting by the K while under power/throttle have been practiced by many by using the brake pedal while under power/throttle.
Otherwise it is not possible to harvest by the K if the brake pedal is not used.

I did not see the information either of you is mentioning, but I have definitely heard engineers warning their drivers against overlapping brake and throttle because it stops harvesting.

[henry]

That’s an excellent paper @subcritical71.

The ERS system has many aspects that individually would not account for superior straight line performance but collectively could help.

For instance, a physically greater storage capacity of the ES would increase the potential deployment paper lap, so would a better ES efficiency and so would any technique that allowed more of the physical capacity to be used during a race. Ferrari were investigated last year because the way they implement their ES is different. Maybe they have found a way to manage higher charge and discharge rates with high efficiency. This would allow longer e-boost and potentially allow combined MGU-K and MGU-H input to the ES at the end of straight. This could also consume more fuel.

They might have slightly better MGU-H from potentially several sources, more energy to the turbine, more efficient turbine and/or compressor, or running lower boost.

They don’t need to be much better than the competition in a number of these to see a significant improvement in the time they can deploy higher powers for longer. Having said that these small improvements would probably be more relevant to race than qualifying, particularly in relation to the ES.

[saviour stivala]

no there is not
(unless such has been introduced recently)

The harvesting by the K while under power/throttle telemetry wasn’t shown by the manufacturer but by a LOCAL to that manufacturer F1 site/magazine.
Harvesting by the K while under power/throttle have been practiced by many by using the brake pedal while under power/throttle.
Otherwise it is not possible to harvest by the K if the brake pedal is not used.

I did not see the information either of you is mentioning, but I have definitely heard engineers warning their drivers against overlapping brake and throttle because it stops harvesting.

I don't remember where and when but that 'overlapping brake and throttle' (using brake pedal under power/throttle) use had a McLaren driver screaming on the radio he have no 'deployment' and his engineers telling him not to go so hard on the brake pedal.

[subcritical71]

I did not see the information either of you is mentioning, but I have definitely heard engineers warning their drivers against overlapping brake and throttle because it stops harvesting.

The engineers have warned drivers about overlap long before the hybrid era.

[henry]

no there is not
(unless such has been introduced recently)

The harvesting by the K while under power/throttle telemetry wasn’t shown by the manufacturer but by a LOCAL to that manufacturer F1 site/magazine.
Harvesting by the K while under power/throttle have been practiced by many by using the brake pedal while under power/throttle.
Otherwise it is not possible to harvest by the K if the brake pedal is not used.

I did not see the information either of you is mentioning, but I have definitely heard engineers warning their drivers against overlapping brake and throttle because it stops harvesting.

Here is a link to a post with the data @tommy cookers refers to (I think) and an explanation of how to interpret it.

viewtopic.php?p=835403#p835403

[ENGINE TUNER]

Here is a link to a post with the data @tommy cookers refers to (I think) and an explanation of how to interpret it.

viewtopic.php?p=835403#p835403

Thank you greatly

The engineers have warned drivers about overlap long before the hybrid era.

Absolutely correct, but in the instances I'm referring to it was specifically in regard to harvesting

[saviour stivala]

It was nothing more than another article posted to another F1 site/magazine by a certain ‘Hino’. Who is ‘Hino?’ try and trace him. Last time I did I ended-up on somebody based in the USA. The importance given to that “harvesting (SPIKE) while under power article” and some other articles from the same magazine are understandable as something that some people “would like to read”.

[subcritical71]

The engineers have warned drivers about overlap long before the hybrid era.

Absolutely correct, but in the instances I'm referring to it was specifically in regard to harvesting

I dunno. At spa this year several cars were about halfway down Kemmel and were flashing. Seems an odd place to be off throttle and braking. I don’t doubt that some teams can use the brake to initiate harvesting, but I don’t see the utility in it from a max energy (not fuel) savings point of view. Makes me wonder what those buttons behind the steering wheel could be used for

[NL_Fer]

Flashing means the software (ecu) decides to turn off MGU-K boost. To save ERS for another part of the track. It is not directly controlled by the driver.

[henry]

Flashing means the software (ecu) decides to turn off MGU-K boost. To save ERS for another part of the track. It is not directly controlled by the driver.

I think the meaning is that the power has been reduced by the ECU not the driver. It doesn’t necessarily mean the MGU-K has been turned off, the ES might not be feeding it but the MGU-H still does, self-Sustain, or the MGU-K power may be negative, charging the ES simultaneously with the MGU-H. I think Ferrari may be exploiting this last mode and Mercedes not.

[gruntguru]

Is there not a regulation that prohibits harvesting(thru the mguk) while ON throttle?

no there is not
(unless such has been introduced recently)

The harvesting by the K while under power/throttle telemetry wasn’t shown by the manufacturer but by a LOCAL to that manufacturer F1 site/magazine.
we have seen one manufacturer's telemetry showing such harvesting

Harvesting by the K while under power/throttle have been practiced by many by using the brake pedal while under power/throttle.
Otherwise it is not possible to harvest by the K if the brake pedal is not used.

You keep repeating this claim but never presented any evidence - apart from your mis-interpretation of a rule.

Fact. K harvesting is determined entirely by control unit algorithms. Use of the brake pedal is only one of many inputs used by the control unit to decide when to deploy the K and how much.