2014 Italian GP - Monza, September 5-7

[langwadt]

Are you serious?

All the times that drivers have given back a spot they gained by cutting a chicane was just about being nice?

So in your opinion Perez cutted the chicane voluntarily, Button pushing him off track has no influence here......

Do you realice you started asking me if Button deserved a penalty because he forced Perez off track, and now you´re saying Perez should have been penaliced because he cutted the chicane?


Button forced Perez off track when the mexican was at his side passing him, but even so Perez completed the overtaking, so it was Button who did the ilegal maneouver, but since Perez was not harmed by this because he completed the overtaking, Button does not deserve a penalty. To me it´s perfectly clear, as for stewards. I don´t understand your confusion with the incident

what I'm saying is that if there was any consistency, then if Magnussen gets a penalty for pushing Bottas off,
then either Button should get one for pushing Perez off, or if you say Perez was not harmed and completed the
overtake he did it while outside the track limits and he should get the penalty

it was hard exciting racing and the cars didn't touch or get damaged, so how about none of them get a penalty ?

[PlatinumZealot]

Here's another conspiracy for you

https://twitter.com/f1fanatic_co_uk/sta ... 0195652608

https://twitter.com/f1fanatic_co_uk/sta ... 7639033856

https://twitter.com/f1fanaticlive/statu ... 0607351808

All Merc engined cars only have a limited number of laps to use the overtake button. Ham was giving the order to use it but only for three laps. Massa had already used it up by the time he was given the order. It has more to do with engine life than conspiracy. If you dump the full 100kg/s into the engine under full boost at low revs the torque produced will be off the charts! So it is mainly to keep williams in line with recommended engine use.

Williams are the only Mercedes team who have paid for the "full engine package." Force India only can afford the outdated specifications and Maclaren are limited by restrictions so they too get the out of date upgrades. This is why Williams seem just as fast as Mercedes, it is all about money and intellectual property.

[Andres125sx]

I agree that Ricciardo wasn't anything sensational. Well, if you analyze how Ricciardo is strategizing his races, you will see a pattern. He will not be very aggressive in the first half of the race and will let go places if gets attacked in the beginning, chooses clear air to drive his first stints, goes longer than most. By that time, people in front of him, including Vettel would be fighting cats and dogs to gain positions and would have damaged their tyres and would be losing speed, whereas in clear air Ricciardo would be doing better times although further behind. People in front then choose to pit, come back and keep fighting and destroying their tyres. Ricciardo takes late pits, gets fresh tyres and would start attacking when others are going down fighting. This has been the case for him most of the times. It is not that he is fighting Cars who has tyres of same age. At the moment, It is working for him and in instances of late Safety Cars, it would be gold mine for him. Thats my analysis.

He started 9th in the grid, lost some positions at the start, but finished the race 5th

If you want, say he´s a good strategist, but you can´t describe his race as something normal, reading your analysis it looks like what he did was standard, what any driver do, when he actually made a great recover with some very good overtakings

[Juzh]

So the Vettel undercut against Magnussen cost him the 5th place but gaint him 2 or 3 positions all in all. I'd say th tactic was not to shabby.

Indeed, the early stop was clearly to jump the little train he was in. Some people call it a bad strategy, but I think this was their best option. Staying out longer would have meant overtaking the whole train with the new tires which would also have killed them at the end.

Ricciardo's bad start was made worse by being forced to go straight at the first corner. But ultimately his strategy worked very well and the overtaking he did was just superb.

For the horse power discussion: the top recorded speed is a very bad indicator, because the ICE top power is quite evenly matched and the top ERS power is exactly equal for all teams since it's specified in the rules. So having DRS, a good tow and emptying the batteries completely on 1 straight gets you the highest "score" but it does not mean the PU doesn't have a disadvantage.

What is interesting to look at is how often they are able to reach those speeds over a lap. Or the average speed on all the straights for a couple of consecutive laps. You could see in the Bottas overtakes that for example Alonso and Vettel had no chance at all, if their PU would have had half a chance to go fast enough they would not have moved over.

So the difference is mostly in the turbo and ERS systems, allowing the Mercedes PU to use MGU-K power for more time per lap. There is only a limit on the amount of energy coming from the Energy Store per lap, so the simplest explanation is that they feed more MGU-H energy to the MGU-K at speed.

Would +1 if I could.

[Andres125sx]

So in your opinion Perez cutted the chicane voluntarily, Button pushing him off track has no influence here......

Do you realice you started asking me if Button deserved a penalty because he forced Perez off track, and now you´re saying Perez should have been penaliced because he cutted the chicane?


Button forced Perez off track when the mexican was at his side passing him, but even so Perez completed the overtaking, so it was Button who did the ilegal maneouver, but since Perez was not harmed by this because he completed the overtaking, Button does not deserve a penalty. To me it´s perfectly clear, as for stewards. I don´t understand your confusion with the incident

what I'm saying is that if there was any consistency, then if Magnussen gets a penalty for pushing Bottas off,
then either Button should get one for pushing Perez off, or if you say Perez was not harmed and completed the
overtake he did it while outside the track limits and he should get the penalty

it was hard exciting racing and the cars didn't touch or get damaged, so how about none of them get a penalty ?

Button forced Perez off track when the mexican was at his side passing him, but even so Perez completed the overtaking, so it was Button who did the ilegal maneouver, but since Perez was not harmed by this because he completed the overtaking, Button does not deserve a penalty.

[NTS]

If you dump the full 100kg/s into the engine under full boost at low revs the torque produced will be off the charts

You can't do that, because otherwise everyone would be running low revs all the time to save fuel. The rules require 10500 RPM minimum before the 100 kg / hour could be used. That's one of the reasons you see most cars stay so close around 10 - 13k RPM.

[iotar__]

Ricciardo's bad start was made worse by being forced to go straight at the first corner. But ultimately his strategy worked very well and the overtaking he did was just superb.

- Not true on both accounts: 1. No one really forced him off track at the start, he went too deep behind Raikkonen as a third car on the outside 2. He was behind Hulk and Raikk before the corner and lost his positions earlier, if anything it helped him to stay in front of Vergne.
- Perez on Button was fantastic even with regular F1 pushing off track, then Button left enough room only to complain about cutting, later - one of the best racing moments this season
- speaking of penalties and stewarding: Button changed his position twice on the straight blocking- left-right-left. It wasn't coming back to the racing line before the corner but purely for blocking the inside line.

Edit: As for Ricciardo's overtaking: he gained 1,6-1,7 per lap after getting past Perez/Magnussen, tyres, traction, Red Bull's aero, no big top speed disadvantage + DRS, nothing special about it - he had too fast of a car to be in that position, that's all.

[roadie]

https://twitter.com/tgruener/status/508990980385939456

Wouldn't that be a disqualification in athletics?

[hollus]

Yes.

[AnthonyG]

Here's another conspiracy for you

https://twitter.com/f1fanatic_co_uk/sta ... 0195652608

https://twitter.com/f1fanatic_co_uk/sta ... 7639033856

https://twitter.com/f1fanaticlive/statu ... 0607351808

All Merc engined cars only have a limited number of laps to use the overtake button. Ham was giving the order to use it but only for three laps. Massa had already used it up by the time he was given the order. It has more to do with engine life than conspiracy. If you dump the full 100kg/s into the engine under full boost at low revs the torque produced will be off the charts! So it is mainly to keep williams in line with recommended engine use.

Williams are the only Mercedes team who have paid for the "full engine package." Force India only can afford the outdated specifications and Maclaren are limited by restrictions so they too get the out of date upgrades. This is why Williams seem just as fast as Mercedes, it is all about money and intellectual property.

I think it's mostly due to Toto and Susie...

[mipade]

I think that the williams look faster then the other merc engine powered teams is not only down to the most up to date engine. Perez was pretty fast on the staights too. The thing is the williams upadetes were also pretty good or lets say effective because most of them worked. The updates on the Force India were mediocre at best. So FI build a solid car at the beginning of the year but they cant develop a car as effective as williams.

And as you guys said the McLaren will run with an older spec engine somehow altdough its forbidden by the rules but who would blame Merc for that move its understandable.

Greetz
Michael

oh jeez im slaughtering the english language

[henra]

I'm pretty sure Williams won't mind too much about that.

Still it's quite telling. Imagine where williams would be if they were allowed to fight on equal Terms with Merc.
It's the engine, stupid...

[Godius]

I think that the williams look faster then the other merc engine powered teams is not only down to the most up to date engine. Perez was pretty fast on the staights too. The thing is the williams upadetes were also pretty good or lets say effective because most of them worked. The updates on the Force India were mediocre at best. So FI build a solid car at the beginning of the year but they cant develop a car as effective as williams.

And as you guys said the McLaren will run with an older spec engine somehow altdough its forbidden by the rules but who would blame Merc for that move its understandable.

Greetz
Michael

oh jeez im slaughtering the english language

FI could have easily topped the charts in Monza but they had so much oversteer on these hard tires that they decided to go with the normal rear wing instead of the low downforce/drag rear wing.

[NTS]

I think it's mostly due to Toto and Susie...

No way. Susie is not in a position to arrange such things and Toto wouldn't risk his image and leadership position by favoring his wife. If anything such outside-work relations usually result in somebody else handling it or a slight disadvantage to the spouse to avoid any kind of doubt or critics about it.

If Toto was Italian, at Ferrari and Susie was team principal I would have believed you

[NTS]

And as you guys said the McLaren will run with an older spec engine somehow altdough its forbidden by the rules but who would blame Merc for that move its understandable.

The engine is the same, it has to be by the rules and Mercedes is not going to risk being excluded due to cheating. But I think the software is not covered by those rules? Red Bull was doing part of the software development and not Renault for example. So it might be that McLaren is getting less data or less support in developing software, or if they don't develop their own they might get older programs than Mercedes uses for their own cars.