Renault Power Unit Hardware & Software

[Blackout]

As far as I understand, new upgrade with basic mappings + current cooling layout = 0.2s
So Taffin/AMuS says this evo isnt ready yet, it needs more work on the mapping and software side and needs a bigger cooling system. http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/form ... 15294.html

[jure]

Renault brough 11 tokens and only a .2 s of austin lap upgrade? lot of politics in it , as taffin said this engine potential wasn't optimised polite move, my sources tells 50-60 hp output pick, but more than that, most of it at very smouth low rev steady powerfull torque ...

Don't teams strive to run engines at 10000 rpm or more, so that when up shift happens, engine stays at around 10000 rpm? As far as I know fuel flow limit is such that at 10500 rpm and above there is maximum fuel flow of 100kg/h, but at lower rpm the limit is lower. So if one wants maximum performance, the engine should be run at around 10500 rpm. So how does low rev torque help them? My understanding is that Renault is lacking torque in range 10000-12000 rpm and that's why they also have low top speed. Could you shed some light on this please?
If possible, could you also ask your sources how does the upgraded Renault engine compare to Mercedes engine.

[ReoPTy]

Renault brough 11 tokens and only a .2 s of austin lap upgrade? lot of politics in it , as taffin said this engine potential wasn't optimised polite move, my sources tells 50-60 hp output pick, but more than that, most of it at very smouth low rev steady powerfull torque ...

Don't teams strive to run engines at 10000 rpm or more, so that when up shift happens, engine stays at around 10000 rpm? As far as I know fuel flow limit is such that at 10500 rpm and above there is maximum fuel flow of 100kg/h, but at lower rpm the limit is lower. So if one wants maximum performance, the engine should be run at around 10500 rpm. So how does low rev torque help them? My understanding is that Renault is lacking torque in range 10000-12000 rpm and that's why they also have low top speed. Could you shed some light on this please?
If possible, could you also ask your sources how does the upgraded Renault engine compare to Mercedes engine.

Mercedes illmor aren't genius, they started r&d on thier hybrid in 2010 without freeze with 3x budget, renault in 2013!
actually its 40 hp delta , renault new upgrade has 50 - 60 hp potential ! most of the delta is petronas fuel rated around 45mj/kg when total top around 42mj/kg !

2016 renault dev should reduce this! renault have to buy time, not technology ! especially with ridiculous freezing rules!
so if they come back with 3x less budget and half the time within 3 years, they are nobel price runner!

[ME4ME]

Mercedes illmor aren't genius, they started r&d on thier hybrid in 2010 without freeze with 3x budget, renault in 2013!
actually its 40 hp delta , renault new upgrade has 50 - 60 hp potential ! most of the delta is petronas fuel rated around 45mj/kg when total top around 42mj/kg !

2016 renault dev should reduce this! renault have to buy time, not technology ! especially with ridiculous freezing rules!
so if they come back with 3x less budget and half the time within 3 years, they are nobel price runner!

I very much hope Renault does complete the Lotus take-over, purely for them so be stuck with their own mess next year. See how they like their own unreliability, underperforming PU. They'll have nothing to blame but themselves if they aren't performing as well as they would like.

Starting development late and not having the necessary budget available are merely excuses: Renault are responsible for that, they have no one to blame but themselves.

As for your statements: You're telling us that the Renault is almost as good as the Mercedes if it weren't for the fuel, and they did in in 3 years less, and 3 times less budget, AND have still 60 hp in the pipeline? They must be miracle-workers then. Sorry I'm buying none of it.

I do hope Red Bull runs the engine before the end of the season, so we at least know the rate of progress and have some facts to go by for winter discussion

[jure]

Mercedes illmor aren't genius, they started r&d on thier hybrid in 2010 without freeze with 3x budget, renault in 2013!
actually its 40 hp delta , renault new upgrade has 50 - 60 hp potential ! most of the delta is petronas fuel rated around 45mj/kg when total top around 42mj/kg !

2016 renault dev should reduce this! renault have to buy time, not technology ! especially with ridiculous freezing rules!
so if they come back with 3x less budget and half the time within 3 years, they are nobel price runner!

So, does 50-60hp upgrade include fuel that has 10% higher value of energy/(mass unit) or is it coming just from improved combustion? It's very hard to believe that Total fuel is so much (almost 10%) worse than Petronas fuel.

[basti313]

I very much hope Renault does complete the Lotus take-over, purely for them so be stuck with their own mess next year. See how they like their own unreliability, underperforming PU. They'll have nothing to blame but themselves if they aren't performing as well as they would like.

I do not see anything pointing in that direction. Lotus without the Merc engine is nothing, so why should they do that stupid deal? And at the moment the rumors of that deal have completely stopped.
To me it looks like only two possibilities: Either they go on supplying RedBull and Torro because they have no other possibility or they stop building F1 engines.

[ReoPTy]

Mercedes illmor aren't genius, they started r&d on thier hybrid in 2010 without freeze with 3x budget, renault in 2013!
actually its 40 hp delta , renault new upgrade has 50 - 60 hp potential ! most of the delta is petronas fuel rated around 45mj/kg when total top around 42mj/kg !

2016 renault dev should reduce this! renault have to buy time, not technology ! especially with ridiculous freezing rules!
so if they come back with 3x less budget and half the time within 3 years, they are nobel price runner!

I very much hope Renault does complete the Lotus take-over, purely for them so be stuck with their own mess next year. See how they like their own unreliability, underperforming PU. They'll have nothing to blame but themselves if they aren't performing as well as they would like.

Starting development late and not having the necessary budget available are merely excuses: Renault are responsible for that, they have no one to blame but themselves.

As for your statements: You're telling us that the Renault is almost as good as the Mercedes if it weren't for the fuel, and they did in in 3 years less, and 3 times less budget, AND have still 60 hp in the pipeline? They must be miracle-workers then. Sorry I'm buying none of it.

I do hope Red Bull runs the engine before the end of the season, so we at least know the rate of progress and have some facts to go by for winter discussion

It seems they spend enought to get reliability right now, would have been very nice to see mercedes burning engines if FIA denied to start any V6 hybrid R&D 3 years before the challengers start thiers, would have been funny races, as in mc laren BBQ 90's great time hey hey !

Renault almost as good as mercedes ? get a look at the last 20 years , or ask Adrian Newey his opinion !
not talking about renault support in most cathegrories motorsport, but look at v10 and v8 areas mercedes wasn't a match for renault on engines counting trophies, but it was a fairest old age, todays FIA was so feared to mercedes trheat to quit f1, they freezed 2014, almost 2015 and 16, and let mercedes enought money , knoledge about futur rules and years of dynos to start in advance the hybrid race!

todays you have this mess called F1, along the age of red bull domination, they wrere wining about 6 to 10 gp a year !

today mercedes its about 16 - 17 wins, with Q3 average gap of 2s 2.5s to the 10th qualified , in 2013 it was 0.3s 0.5s to the 10th

[XRayF1]

Mercedes illmor aren't genius, they started r&d on thier hybrid in 2010 without freeze with 3x budget, renault in 2013!
actually its 40 hp delta , renault new upgrade has 50 - 60 hp potential ! most of the delta is petronas fuel rated around 45mj/kg when total top around 42mj/kg !

2016 renault dev should reduce this! renault have to buy time, not technology ! especially with ridiculous freezing rules!
so if they come back with 3x less budget and half the time within 3 years, they are nobel price runner!

I very much hope Renault does complete the Lotus take-over, purely for them so be stuck with their own mess next year. See how they like their own unreliability, underperforming PU. They'll have nothing to blame but themselves if they aren't performing as well as they would like.

Starting development late and not having the necessary budget available are merely excuses: Renault are responsible for that, they have no one to blame but themselves.

As for your statements: You're telling us that the Renault is almost as good as the Mercedes if it weren't for the fuel, and they did in in 3 years less, and 3 times less budget, AND have still 60 hp in the pipeline? They must be miracle-workers then. Sorry I'm buying none of it.

I do hope Red Bull runs the engine before the end of the season, so we at least know the rate of progress and have some facts to go by for winter discussion

It seems they spend enought to get reliability right now, would have been very nice to see mercedes burning engines if FIA denied to start any V6 hybrid R&D 3 years before the challengers start thiers, would have been funny races, as in mc laren BBQ 90's great time hey hey !

Renault almost as good as mercedes ? get a look at the last 20 years , or ask Adrian Newey his opinion !
not talking about renault support in most cathegrories motorsport, but look at v10 and v8 areas mercedes wasn't a match for renault on engines counting trophies, but it was a fairest old age, todays FIA was so feared to mercedes trheat to quit f1, they freezed 2014, almost 2015 and 16, and let mercedes enought money , knoledge about futur rules and years of dynos to start in advance the hybrid race!

todays you have this mess called F1, along the age of red bull domination, they wrere wining about 6 to 10 gp a year !

today mercedes its about 16 - 17 wins, with Q3 average gap of 2s 2.5s to the 10th qualified , in 2013 it was 0.3s 0.5s to the 10th

Can't follow your statement re the qualification gaps.

Just looking at the first couple of qualification results in 2013, the time difference between pole setter and 10th placed in Q3 was 2.9s (AUS), 5s (MAL), 1.5s (CHINA), 0.9s (BAH), 1.3s (BAR), ...
Taking a look at 2012/Q3 for reference they were not much different: 1.5s (AUS), 1.5s (MAL), 1.5s (CHINA), 1.0s (BAH), 1.5s (BAR), ...
Even AUS 2011: 3.5s
The simple facts dispute your statement. And not only for 2013.

Just as a reference, because everyone is of the opinion the 90s were the best, the qualification gap of the Brazilian GP of 1990 (2nd race): 2.0s between 1st and 10th.
Another one ... Imola (the 3rd race 1990): 3.2s

Not much has changed since then - some will always better the others.
It is as simple as that.

[djos]

Not sure if it has been posted here but apparently RedBull will take the New Renault PU at Brazil - they said it didn't make sense to take more PU penalties in the USA or Mexico while their current PU's are still working. Apparently Renault still have some engine mapping work to fine tune the new ICE & Turbo as well (this is all from the Sky F1 broadcast).

[wuzak]

Renault almost as good as mercedes ? get a look at the last 20 years , or ask Adrian Newey his opinion !
not talking about renault support in most cathegrories motorsport, but look at v10 and v8 areas mercedes wasn't a match for renault on engines counting trophies, but it was a fairest old age, todays FIA was so feared to mercedes trheat to quit f1, they freezed 2014, almost 2015 and 16, and let mercedes enought money , knoledge about futur rules and years of dynos to start in advance the hybrid race!

The then current engine suppliers (Ferrari, Mercedes, Renault) as well as prospective suppliers (Honda, VW/Audi) were involved in the discussion formulating the rules from the start.

Initially the concept was for I4s, until VW/Audi said they couldn't be bothered, and then it was changed to V6.

Ferrari and, particularly, Renault didn't expand their engine departs big enough or fast enough from the downsized departments they ran during the "frozen" V8 era.

[ReoPTy]

Renault almost as good as mercedes ? get a look at the last 20 years , or ask Adrian Newey his opinion !
not talking about renault support in most cathegrories motorsport, but look at v10 and v8 areas mercedes wasn't a match for renault on engines counting trophies, but it was a fairest old age, todays FIA was so feared to mercedes trheat to quit f1, they freezed 2014, almost 2015 and 16, and let mercedes enought money , knoledge about futur rules and years of dynos to start in advance the hybrid race!

The then current engine suppliers (Ferrari, Mercedes, Renault) as well as prospective suppliers (Honda, VW/Audi) were involved in the discussion formulating the rules from the start.

Initially the concept was for I4s, until VW/Audi said they couldn't be bothered, and then it was changed to V6.

Ferrari and, particularly, Renault didn't expand their engine departs big enough or fast enough from the downsized departments they ran during the "frozen" V8 era.

it was the goal, having a cheap and reliable PU!

today its a mess , PU are 3 x more expensive , and it will stay like this because technology isn't mature enought to big general scale !

monza 2013 vettel P1 1:23.755 button 1:24.515 0.8s

monza 2015 ham p1 1:23.397 P9 1:25.317 2s

f1 2014 season 19 gp 16 gp won by mercedes 2015 19 gp mercedes won 13 , still 3gp to go

2012 20 gp red bull won 7

[R_GoWin]

...
About the pre-chamber combustion which Mercedes is using, I found some interesting information from Mahle Powertrains (http://www.greencarcongress.com/2012/05 ... 20521.html). According to the article, 45% thermal efficiency is possible with this technology. But since Mahle is one of Ferrari's sponsors/technical partners, are they maybe also using this technology already?

Bergie 88 - the link you have provided to on combustion system with pre-chamber appears to need atleast 2 fuel injectors - DI for the pre chamber which acts as a flamethrower to a main chamber which is port injected. Article 5.10.2 of the technical regulations clearly state that:

5.10.2 There may only be one direct injector per cylinder and no injectors are permitted upstream of the intake valves or downstream of the exhaust valves. Only approved parts may be used and the list of parts approved by the FIA, and the approval procedure, may be found in the Appendix to the Technical Regulations.

This potentially rules out the MAHLE system. Do you have a source/link to Mercedes's pre-chamber system?

[bergie88]

...
About the pre-chamber combustion which Mercedes is using, I found some interesting information from Mahle Powertrains (http://www.greencarcongress.com/2012/05 ... 20521.html). According to the article, 45% thermal efficiency is possible with this technology. But since Mahle is one of Ferrari's sponsors/technical partners, are they maybe also using this technology already?

Bergie 88 - the link you have provided to on combustion system with pre-chamber appears to need atleast 2 fuel injectors - DI for the pre chamber which acts as a flamethrower to a main chamber which is port injected. Article 5.10.2 of the technical regulations clearly state that:

5.10.2 There may only be one direct injector per cylinder and no injectors are permitted upstream of the intake valves or downstream of the exhaust valves. Only approved parts may be used and the list of parts approved by the FIA, and the approval procedure, may be found in the Appendix to the Technical Regulations.

This potentially rules out the MAHLE system. Do you have a source/link to Mercedes's pre-chamber system?

True, I did not noticed the presence of the extra injector in the Mahle pre-combustion chamber. However, multiple injections per cycle are allowed, so maybe a small injection in the pre-combustion chamber will be followed by a larger injection, pushing the already burning fuel into the real combustion chamber?

To be honest, I have no idea what kind of pre-chamber system Mercedes is using, so I cannot provide you sources or links. I think the inside details of the Mercedes PU are one of the best kept secrets of the paddock .

[NL_Fer]

I rather think it's the other way around, first injections to charge the cilinder with fuel/air mixture during the intake cycle. Then the 2nd ignition-injection-jet during then compression cycle.

Took me some time to figure out the sense of the jet-ignition. But i think a lean mixture, compressed hard is very difficult to ignite with a simple spark. The jet of fuel is ignited first, then acts as a powerfull ignitor to ignite the compressed lean mixture.

[gruntguru]

The Mahle system is designed as an easy retro-fit to existing engine designs. A single DI injector implementation might be possible by aiming part of the injector spray towards the pre-chamber and timing the injection to obtain the desired AFR in the prechamber.

For near stoichiometric, homogeneous mixture engines, the pre-chamber system works fine without the extra injector. Its just a matter of having a rich enough mixture in the pre-chamber. The advantages of rapid combustion with multiple remote ignition points still apply - you just don't get the lean-main-chamber benefits.

There are a few papers out there by Attard, Watson etc.