2010 regulation row on £40m budget cap

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gridwalker
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Re: Ferrari to pull out of F1 next year

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ISLAMATRON wrote:there is nothing stopping them from doing that now, but the rule stopping customer cars kicks in next year, unless this comprimise goes thru... we very well might see McMerc customer cars, or even BRAWN!

regardless Renault & Toyota look as good as gone... but Flav will buyout the renault squad... who will buy Toyota... one of these new teams would be wise to look into what toyota wants for all that technology they have put into the german site, or maybe TOYO will shift to LE mans racing
Isn't the Toyota F1 operation run from the old site used for the former TTE (Toyota Team Europe) World Rally Championship factory?

I think Toyota will be holding onto the factory, even if they leave the sport. You never know when it'll come in useful ...

Honda never actually owned the site that their factory was built on, as it was leased from one of the old BAR founders, so it was easier to simply pass the lease on.
"Change is inevitable, except from a vending machine ..."

andartop
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Re: Ferrari to pull out of F1 next year

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Yes. Actually, I've read somewhere (sorry, can't remember where) that they were considering a return to WRC.
Provided the FIA manage to sort out the mess they've created there, I'd sure love to see that. WRC, LeMans and Paris-Dakar, I think, would be much more suitable for Toyota than F1 at the moment.
And since they were only really ever interested of beating Honda rather than the likes of Ferrari and McLaren, it makes absolute sense.
The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the human mind to correlate all its contents. H.P.Lovecraft

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ISLAMATRON
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Re: Ferrari to pull out of F1 next year

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Toyota should do all those in addition to F1, regardless of what Honda is doing

modbaraban
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Re: Ferrari to pull out of F1 next year

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Image


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gridwalker
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Re: Ferrari to pull out of F1 next year

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ISLAMATRON wrote:Toyota should do all those in addition to F1, regardless of what Honda is doing
I can see all of that happening if Max gets his way & a "world engine" is introduced, but I don't see anyone's development budget stretching that far in the current economic climate ...

It's a nice idea in an ideal world, but the current mess in F1 just goes to show that the world is far from ideal.
"Change is inevitable, except from a vending machine ..."

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ISLAMATRON
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Re: Ferrari to pull out of F1 next year

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gridwalker wrote:
ISLAMATRON wrote:Toyota should do all those in addition to F1, regardless of what Honda is doing
I can see all of that happening if Max gets his way & a "world engine" is introduced, but I don't see anyone's development budget stretching that far in the current economic climate ...

It's a nice idea in an ideal world, but the current mess in F1 just goes to show that the world is far from ideal.
Dont mention a good idea like the "world engine" around here, you just might get banned for being one of Max's play friends

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WhiteBlue
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Re: Ferrari to pull out of F1 next year

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Autosport
FOTA agrees on plan to help new teams

By Edd Straw Thursday, May 28th 2009, 14:13 GMT

The Formula One Teams' Association (FOTA) has agreed to propose a system of technical partnerships for new teams to assist them in joining the grid in 2010, following a meeting between the team principals in London yesterday, AUTOSPORT has learned.

As the teams close in on an agreement with the FIA over the future regulations of F1 ahead of tomorrow's 2010 entry deadline, FOTA hopes this compromise would allow prospective new teams assistance from the established operations to compete credibly in their first seasons without having to fund a significant increase beyond the set budget cap.

FOTA is pushing for a "glidepath" approach to adopting the budget cap regulations, with a two-step reduction in expenditure in 2010 and 2011.

This would see expenditure limited to €100 million in 2010, dropping to €45 for the following season.

The technical partnerships would give the new teams assistance in terms of parts, particularly non-performance differentiators, as well as some design know-how.

The FOTA proposal is believed to stop short of allowing full-blown customer cars, something that is strongly opposed by several teams, and would be structured to ensure that the newcomers compete under the budget cap in their own right in 2011.

FOTA also discussed further ways to develop the budget cap concept, with the possibility of some commonality of non-performance differentiators still on the table in a bid to repackage the imposed limit as a programme of cost containment.

Although final agreement has not been reached, it is believed that both the FIA and FOTA are confident that a resolution can be found ahead of the entry deadline.
it appears as if the customer car idea is a non flyer. they will have to dress it up a bit different. Williams would probably go straight back to the courts if they did it.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

axle
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Re: Ferrari to pull out of F1 next year

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The FOTA proposal is believed to stop short of allowing full-blown customer cars
I expect the pull back from full customer cars is indeed to appease the existing independents.

Looks like Mercedes have tabled the package and asked all to accept. If they do, those with tin foil hats will probably cry foul like with the McLaren-SECU :roll:

http://f1.gpupdate.net/en/news/2009/05/ ... -proposal/
- Axle

DaveKillens
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Re: Ferrari to pull out of F1 next year

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The fact that the deadline for entrants was moved up six months places pressure on everyone to find a quick compromise. It appears that one may be possible, and hopefully everyone will sign on the dotted line. The details of Haug's proposal are sketchy, and I would love to learn more details.
But if there will be a 100 million budget cap in 2010 and even lower in 2011, this opens up interesting possiblities. What would keep any one the teams with big pockets from pouring a lot of money and resources in 2009 towards the 2010 car? So, if this goes through, I expect teams such as McLaren and Ferrari to have killer cars for the 2010 season. Spend the money today, because it doesn't have to be part of the 2010 budget.
Hopeful entrants would have to operate on their lower budgets, but if they do receive quality assistance from the established teams then the performance gap may be closer. But it does give teams like Mclaren an opportunity to establish very close ties to .. umm, let's say... pertnar teams such as Force India. In fact, the ties may be so close those supported teams may find themselves a junior partners to established teams.
So where does that leave Williams? They do not qualify as a new team, and thus will not receive assistance from other teams. Williams did commit themselves, but I ponder exactly what they commited themselves for? Are they forced to live within a budget cap in 2010? Right now there appear to be three distinct classes. The teams already participating in Formula One, but waiting for this compromise, the new teams coming in 2010, and Williams. Odd man out, fell through the cracks, call it what you will, I do have concerns about their future.
Racing should be decided on the track, not the court room.

sticky667
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Re: Ferrari to pull out of F1 next year

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usually when you sign a contract for a specific budget, it doesn't matter the actual year you start to spend it vs when you come under contract. which means they will start to be monitored once they sign (tomorrow) for the 2010 car. the only difference would be if they are able to keep the 2009 regs and then pour money into this yr under the notion of competing towards the championship.

the longer they wait, the more time the next team is going to have time to improve their car, similar to the 18months Brawn GP had. surely they would try to wait out this year's results as long as possible to continue spending on the "2009" car to bring the development to the 2010 car if the regs don't change.

Richard
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Re: Ferrari to pull out of F1 next year

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WhiteBlue wrote:
richard_leeds wrote:
WhiteBlue wrote:In that light Ferrari have never been a manufacturer. They are a racing team with a sports car division that earned some of the money for racing and got the PR from racing for selling sports cars.
Same goes for Maclaren.
I would call that a very liberal interpretation of the facts. When you compare McLaren's numbers of road cars with Ferrari's you will find a factor of two magnitudes. And it is well documented that Merc has poured several hundred millions of $$ annually into the partnership. This money has been slightly reduced by the engine homologation but it is still substantial for McLaren's budget.
I was trying to differentiate between MacLaren and Merc. Yes they entwined now, but if/when Merc move on, we will still have a Maclaren racing team. Just like Williams Renault are now distant memory...

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djos
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Re: Ferrari to pull out of F1 next year

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richard_leeds wrote: I was trying to differentiate between MacLaren and Merc. Yes they entwined now, but if/when Merc move on, we will still have a Maclaren racing team. Just like Williams Renault are now distant memory...
The difference is Renault were never shareholders in Williams GP.
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WhiteBlue
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Re: Ferrari to pull out of F1 next year

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Gulf Times
Mosley shows strength in fight for F1 future
AFP/Monte Carlo
Max Mosley is showing strength as the president of the governing motorsport body FIA is determined to succeed in the power struggle over the future of Formula One and in the fight to protect his privacy.
Mosley, in an interview with the German Press Agency DPA, said he was “perhaps almost as strong as before” at the top of FIA, more than a year after a British mass circulation paper published details from his sex life.
The London High Court confirmed in July 2008 that Mosley’s sex play with five prostitutes made no reference to National Socialist contents and behaviour.
Meanwhile, the outcome of the Formula One rule dispute between FIA and the teams led by Ferrari remains open.
Formula One without Ferrari would be “poorer,” the FIA boss said in the interview conducted in his Monte Carlo office. He said he was ready to get through the conflict, even if the Italians really quit.
“If you are convinced, and I am convinced, that Formula One cannot survive on current levels of expenditure, then you have to,” Mosley said.
Mosley, 69, said that the FIA is doing everything to convince the teams to stay on, but warned that “in the end you can’t let them dictate.”
The teams and FIA have been at odds for weeks over the rules for the 2010 season and a budget cap of around 45mn euros.
Looking at the massive budgets of the teams, Mosley said: “It’s just that the teams are used to this way of life, but you can’t do it.”
Mosley said that manufacturer teams like Ferrari, BMW and Toyota invest 300-400mn euros each year into their Formula One projects.
Mosley named the sums “unsustainable” and said that radical cost-cutting was inevitable in the wake of the world economic crisis and a sharp fall in sales for the carmakers.
He said that such measures were also in the interest of shareholders and tax payers, whose money is currently thrown away for F1 teams by the manufacturers. “If we make this reduction there is some chance that these big manufacturers will stay in. If we don’t make the reduction I see no chance of them staying,” Mosley told DPA.
The fear about the future of Ferrari has added to the pressure in the dispute between the teams and the FIA.
Mosley named Ferrari’s “image and name and brand” the key value of the famed team for Formula One. He also acknowledged that “among all the teams Ferrari is the number one brand, no question.”
But Mosley said that Formula One can survive without the current constructors’ world champion.
“It would be poorer. But you see, when poor (Ayrton) Senna got killed people would think: Oh, this is the end of everything. It just made no difference. Because the sport is always bigger than the biggest player,” he said.
Mosley said that the planned budget cap has in fact led to more potential newcomers into F1 racing, which was good for the sport and its future.
“No sport is healthy without new people coming in ... If you stopped those new entrepreneurs coming in Formula One will die. You can’t have just a lot of old men running it,” said Mosley.
Looking at his personal future, Mosley said that he has not yet made a final decision how much longer he aims to rule the FIA and its politics.
Mosley said under pressure last year that he would not seek a fifth term, but by now he is considering it.
“Just about everybody in the FIA is urging me to stay. Some of the Formula One teams are not, but that doesn’t matter, they don’t have a vote. So it’s a difficult decision,” he said.
Mosley also said that his future will not be tied to the current rule dispute because that the issue will “certainly be resolved one way or the other before any election.”
My predictions were pretty accurate that this break away exercise would crumble exactly as the previous one. The reasons are all the same. The F1 teams never realistically had a chance to do what they said they were aiming for, taking commercial control away from FOM. It took them quite long to realise it, but in the end they had to pack in as GPMA did in 2006. So what is the upshot of all of this?

Bernie has secured his grip on F1 for 3,5 more years until the Ferrari, Williams, Red Bull and FIF1 contracts expire. The other teams will jump on the band waggon and sign a contract with him as well to that dead line. The FIA will sign as well but it is irrelevant since they have sold the series to FOM for 100 years anyway. So only the teams signature on these contracts really matter. I will bet on eating my old sock again, that this "Concord Agreement" has no veto right for any team. The published rules of majority rule making will apply with the sole veto by the WMSC.

What is the result for FIA? They have kept the air superiority over the rule making for another extended period. If FOM looses the plot to FOTA in 2013 they will still saction the series but may not have the rule control any more.

What is the result for FOM? They will continue to rake in the money for some more years and should take care to shift the risk to new deptors and investors fairly soon unless they manage to secretely contract some substantial players again ahead of 2013.

How about Fota? They need to take a long view and make sure that Bernie buys their president not a second time.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

Conceptual
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Re: Ferrari to pull out of F1 next year

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ISLAMATRON wrote:If so qual speeds will be off the charts next year and with some new teams & drivers we could see some serious accidents
Um, I guess that's racing... :wtf:

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WhiteBlue
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Re: Ferrari to pull out of F1 next year

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gcdugas wrote:No concession from Max as I predicted . Ferrari are in the French civil courts. They are serious. 14 days to go. The teams will not sign and Bernie will be without a series. ....

Max is a N@z! socialist tyrant pig who doesn't believe in gravity...

And please note that the budget cap is by far a secondary issue. .
I just went back to demonstrate the quality of our valued member gcdugas predictions. The statement in bold was emphasised by me.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)