Mercedes GP - Inauguration and 1st season

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JohnsonsEvilTwin
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Joined: 29 Jan 2010, 11:51
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Re: Mercedes GP

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"The car we currently have is almost a 'survivor' from last year, which had already been shaped, moulded and developed for us. And we as drivers have had to make compromises accordingly."


Schumacher this morning on talksport website

Enough said then!
More could have been done.
David Purley

segedunum
segedunum
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Joined: 03 Apr 2007, 13:49

Re: Mercedes GP

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JohnsonsEvilTwin wrote:As you think that halving the workforce has NO effect, Why the f*** do Mclaren and Red Bull Ferrari bother employing 650 630 and 900 staff respectivley?
Because these teams are businesses and have a lot of other interests besides Formula 1. There are PR people, physios, offshoot engineering projects..... They aren't all contributing to the performance of the car. It's merely how the teams have expanded.

This is what makes the headcount a bit of a nonsense. Yes, team headcounts will be cut but teams like Ferrari and Mercedes will just 'outsource' some work and expertise to their parent companies.
Because by your "logic"(term used very generously) they would be able to cut that down to 400 and suffer no performance shortfall AT ALL!
Yes, they probably could but that denies the fact that some of these teams are extremely divergent companies.
Half the numbers does not mean half as good, If that was the case Red Bull would have lapped Schumacher 25 times in Hungary, so the flaw sits in your defintion my friend.
Errrr, no. The logic used to get that is so insane it defies belief. Are you seriously suggesting the Red Bull team has 25 times the staff of Mercedes and therefore should be 25 times as good? #-o That is not what I suggested at all.
Honestly now, can you give me a valid reason why losing 350 staff during the course of a year will have a positive effect on a team?
I didn't say it would have a positive affect. I said there was no evidence that it had affected the performance of the car and that it wasn't the reason why they've gone backwards.

segedunum
segedunum
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Joined: 03 Apr 2007, 13:49

Re: Mercedes GP

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xpensive wrote:Consider this, Ross Brawn put everything on one card when designing the 2009 car with a highly controversial diffuser, imagine the mess if it had been thrown out from the first race? He must have worked in collusion with his old employer and ally, MrM, who had his own agenda for upsetting the FOTA applecart, why Brawn knew beforehand that it would be approved, against all sensible logic.

But as soon as everyone cought up in 2010, they were back to square one.
It's possible. You've got to ask why it miraculously got 'banned' for 2011 and was swept under the carpet.

Giblet
Giblet
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Joined: 19 Mar 2007, 01:47
Location: Canada

Re: Mercedes GP

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You can go faster with more money. People cost money. If a team lets go a physio, and you use that physio to help work out a kink in your neck, and you work in the technical side, you have just been affected by the loss of one of these people who are not in the 'core' of the team.

This is one small example of how losing staff you are used to functioning with as a team could affect the technical side.

These are teams, and staffing changes from any side could affect the car in many subtle or not so subtle ways.

All things being equal, more staff and more money = more performance, or at the very least, more potential performance.

You guys seem to be lost in the numbers game and dropped the ball of what we are really talking about.

There is no evidence for sure, but the logic of losing some resources affecting the team is very strong.
Before I do anything I ask myself “Would an idiot do that?” And if the answer is yes, I do not do that thing. - Dwight Schrute

zeph
zeph
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Joined: 07 Aug 2010, 11:54
Location: Los Angeles

Re: Mercedes GP

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segedunum wrote: I fail to see how that's out of context.
The sentence that you replaced with the cute little dotted line? That is crucial to my statement. By removing it you have taken an essential part of the original post away, thereby altering its meaning. Why act like you don't know? :^o

Fine, if that's how you want to play, go ahead. For everybody else, segedunum quoted this and removed the bold part:
zeph wrote: Still, my point is that Mercedes is really not doing all that badly. Especially if the 2009 season was just a fluke, as some here seem to suggest. Compared to the results they got as Honda I would have thought this year seems to be going pretty well.
Of course, the person suggesting that BrawnGP's success in 2009 was a fluke, was none other than segedunum.

xpensive
xpensive
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Joined: 22 Nov 2008, 18:06
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Re: Mercedes GP

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segedunum wrote: ...
This is what makes the headcount a bit of a nonsense. Yes, team headcounts will be cut but teams like Ferrari and Mercedes will just 'outsource' some work and expertise to their parent companies.
...
This is what I've said all along, a headcount has so many loopholes in it, it's difficult to know where to begin.

Keeping track on who clocks in and out at the facility, or who is or isn't on which payroll, at this day and age seems
a rather pathetic and futile effort really. This is why I simply didn't believe it when I first heard about it.
"I spent most of my money on wine and women...I wasted the rest"

segedunum
segedunum
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Joined: 03 Apr 2007, 13:49

Re: Mercedes GP

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zeph wrote:The sentence that you replaced with the cute little dotted line? That is crucial to my statement. By removing it you have taken an essential part of the original post away, thereby altering its meaning. Why act like you don't know? :^o
The part about 2009 being a fluke? Because it's irrelevant. On the one hand you've said that Mercedes aren't doing that badly this year and on the other you've clearly said that compared to the results they got as Honda this year isn't that bad. What happened in 2009 is neither here nor there in that context. In fact, 2009 simply makes this year look even worse because they've gone backwards, so I've no idea what you're attempting to say.
Of course, the person suggesting that BrawnGP's success in 2009 was a fluke, was none other than segedunum.
Well, for starters it's irrelevant to what you'd written either side, as I'd explained, and given the results before and after 2009 then you'd have to say it was a fluke regardless. Like I said, what are you trying to say?

If you want to say why that's relevant then do so, but it doesn't change anything about what was written. Complaining about someone editing your post is just a pointless diversion. :wink:
Last edited by segedunum on 17 Aug 2010, 16:34, edited 1 time in total.

segedunum
segedunum
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Joined: 03 Apr 2007, 13:49

Re: Mercedes GP

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xpensive wrote:This is what I've said all along, a headcount has so many loopholes in it, it's difficult to know where to begin.

Keeping track on who clocks in and out at the facility, or who is or isn't on which payroll, at this day and age seems
a rather pathetic and futile effort really. This is why I simply didn't believe it when I first heard about it.
I'm all for cost reduction, I think the ban on testing has been a reasonable success and the headcount reduction will happen, but for those with 'partners' and parent companies where do you draw the line? In terms of PR and press people Ferrari's will decamp to Fiat, Mercedes's to Mercedes, Red Bull to Red Bull and Virgin to Virgin so they'll do two jobs - one official, one unofficial. That's an easy save right there. Red Bull has a company called Red Bull Technology that does other things apart from doing design and build work for Formula One. Strictly speaking, RBR doesn't own the designs to their own cars. Adrian Newey and Giorgio Ascanelli don't even work for RBR and Torro Rosso. Who works for who?

You might be able to enforce an official headcount within teams, but this is going to be one massive joke. It will also hurt the smaller teams who are seeking to expand who don't have the resources of a partner or parent company to call on.

zeph
zeph
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Joined: 07 Aug 2010, 11:54
Location: Los Angeles

Re: Mercedes GP

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segedunum wrote:I've no idea what you're attempting to say.
Obviously.
segedunum wrote:Complaining about someone editing your post is just a pointless diversion. :wink:
#-o

OK, sit tight...
Last edited by zeph on 17 Aug 2010, 17:04, edited 1 time in total.

zeph
zeph
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Location: Los Angeles

Re: Mercedes GP

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segedunum wrote: I'm all for cost reduction, but this is going to be one massive joke. It will also hurt the smaller teams who are seeking a partner or parent to call on.
Here, I edited your post a little. No harm, right?

Bye.

segedunum
segedunum
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Joined: 03 Apr 2007, 13:49

Re: Mercedes GP

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zeph wrote:Wow, that is an impressive display of muddled thinking. Do YOU even understand what you mean? No wonder you missed the point.
:wtf: Rrrright. OK, so you're not going to explain what relevance the part about 2009 that was edited out had to whatever point you were trying to make. You said it was important to what you were trying to say. It obviously wasn't and it's merely a diversion. :^o

Were you just upset that I pointed out something that you'd written that you didn't really want to say?
Last edited by segedunum on 17 Aug 2010, 17:12, edited 1 time in total.

marcush.
marcush.
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Joined: 09 Mar 2004, 16:55

Re: Mercedes GP

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Honda were in fact leading the field in mastering carbonfibre transmission technology and won in Hungary in 2006...
And you could say Honda taking over was the start of their falling from grace after building up as BAR and peaking in their first works Honda year...
I think it is possible to draw too many conclusions from things that happened in the past just looking at selected facts.

just look at the fates of Jordan ,Sauber,BAR,Toyota,Stewart GP,Minardi since their
startup and you can clearly see that you can create opportunities and miracles as well as creating a mess out of the recources avaiable.
But it is quite proven in my view that bringing in key people or reorganising people you got can work wonders..just look at Sauber in 2011 or williams what a difference in
a few months they showed..
The Merc guys put the blame on the car ,the tyres whatever.. which is a big mistake.they have done this car and it does not perform.Take the blame ,solve the problems.

segedunum
segedunum
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Joined: 03 Apr 2007, 13:49

Re: Mercedes GP

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zeph wrote:
segedunum wrote: I'm all for cost reduction, but this is going to be one massive joke. It will also hurt the smaller teams who are seeking a partner or parent to call on.
Here, I edited your post a little. No harm, right?
Well I popped some full stops in between to make it obvious that I had edited.......

#-o No there is no harm there, because there is no disconnect between those two statements and they are not at odds. Yes the reduction in headcount is going to be a joke and yes it is going to hurt smaller teams because they won't be able to 'hide' their employee numbers as easily as other teams who can.

What are you trying to say here sunshine, because we've got so far off the original topic it's ridiculous?

zeph
zeph
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Joined: 07 Aug 2010, 11:54
Location: Los Angeles

Re: Mercedes GP

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segedunum wrote:
What are you trying to say here sunshine, because we've got so far off the original topic it's ridiculous?
It's okay, seg. My posts are clear for those who know how to read. You distill from them whatever you want, and I will refrain from further attempts to explain it to you.

Have a good one.

xpensive
xpensive
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Joined: 22 Nov 2008, 18:06
Location: Somewhere in Scandinavia

Re: Mercedes GP

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Back on topic, should Norbert Haug pay Nick Heidfeld a decent haircut and a shave before he leaves?
"I spent most of my money on wine and women...I wasted the rest"