Strange going-ons at Red Bull

[WhiteBlue]

Fine, we are back to Red Bull drivers this year. Vettel made a gesture in Turkey immediately after climbing out of his car indicating that the on track action was madness. IMO he referred to Mark fighting him when he thought he was supposed to pass him on team order. That was clearly done in the heat of the moment and no further criticism of the team was made in later interviews.

Mark was talked to by Horner on Saturday afternoon but he continued his media campaign for another 20 hours. He even continued it beyond the race saying that he regretted signing for another year. The emotional "moment" was a bit longer than you would expect it.

Between Saturday afternoon and Wednesday afternoon nothing actually changed in the team stance. Horner said he would take the decision again exactly as he did before. The only thing he regretted was his miscommunication. That he had already said on Saturday.

On Wednesday afternoon after another "clear the air" talk Webber made a retraction. Do you still think that Vettel's and Webber's statements and actions were comparable? I don't think so.

[djos]

[myurr]

A person with less emotional impetus and more rational control over his talk - a more balanced person - would have avoided that.

That is what you wrote.

What I have done is given 3 examples of drivers who have become emotional and " imbalanced". This is extremely common in ALL sports. To single out Webber as you have, I feel is unjustified, farcial and based on a very unrealistic understanding of the pressures in an elite sport. Even Vettel after the incident in Turkey took it upon himself to signal to the crowd and cameras what he thought of Webber. Doesnt matter who you are, sometimes the anger boils over.

+1

Plus let us not forget who started the media circus at Red Bull. Was it Webber? No. It was Dr Marko when he started publicly slagging off Webber and blaming him for the crash in Turkey. Horner then joined in. The team then spent the next week changing their story, releasing new 'facts', many of which you latched on to in your quest to make Vettel out to be blameless for that crash, before Red Bull themselves had to beat a hasty retreat and back track on all their claims.

[myurr]

On Wednesday afternoon after another "clear the air" talk Webber made a retraction. Do you still think that Vettel's and Webber's statements and actions were comparable? I don't think so.

And yet after the Silverstone race when Vettel should have been keeping out of it, he made comments to the media about now seeing the 'true face' of Webber - a public condemnation of his team mate at a delicate time. How does that fit into your assessment?

To me it was more mind games being played by Vettel, slagging off his team mate to the media to try and get them to spin things differently, planting the seed of doubt in the teams mind about Webber's true character, etc. Clearly he is engaging in a psyops campaign designed to undermine Webber's standing in the team and with the wider public.

[marcush.]

anyone involved in racing knows how drivers are when they climb out of their car after stopping....you just don´t listn ,as usually they are in a special frame of mind not really representing a measured adult stance....so to let your drivers talk
in the heat of the moment is playing shotgun or whatever you may call it.this is to me the main reason for the press officers standing by very close and putting the recorder directly under the nose of their driver ,just to remind him to restraint himself ,protect himself...
Neither Vettel nor Webber are Alesi or Alonso so it is RB again doing a lousy job ..

[WhiteBlue]

Good that you bring up the "true face" comment. There was nothing wrong with it. If I were the target of a media campaign by Webber of that magnitude I probably would not have shown such restraint. Sebastian simply indicated that he had no comment on the whole episode and that it had changed the way he perceived his team mate. It was pretty obvious that something had changed in the relationship and it wasn't Sebastian's fault. Perhaps you want to read Jonathan Noble's comment again that Sebastian was the one who was really damaged in his reputation by the whole episode without a fault of his own.

[myurr]

Good that you bring up the "true face" comment. There was nothing wrong with it. If I were the target of a media campaign by Webber of that magnitude I probably would not have shown such restraint. Sebastian simply indicated that he had no comment on the whole episode and that it had changed the way he perceived his team mate. It was pretty obvious that something had changed in the relationship and it wasn't Sebastian's fault. Perhaps you want to read Jonathan Noble's comment again that Sebastian was the one who was really damaged in his reputation by the whole episode without a fault of his own.

Although Noble actually suggested what Vettel should do to restore his reputation, and Vettel has thus far not done so. At no point has he said he expected both drivers to be treated equally and that he would be speaking to his team to insist that this was the case. He accepted advantage and publicly criticised Webber for not accepting disadvantage - that does not make him innocent.

The true face comment is far from okay mainly due to the timing and the heavy insinuation and slur against his team mate. The team was, at that point, seeking to calm the situation and rebuild bridges with Webber and basically Vettel was out there in public saying that Mark was the bad guy and he couldn't work with him. Like it or not that is the implication of saying you've seen someone's true face.

Vettel has also never accepted blame for the crash in Turkey, doesn't think he did anything wrong the Chinese pit lane, etc. You focus on Turkey and the subsequent media activity but the sheen was already wearing off his 'nice guy' image well before then for various on track actions that were directly of his doing. The Turkey incident merely provided a focal point for the media, amongst many fans his reputation was already being tarnished and Turkey merely reinforced that view. He has done absolutely nothing since then to repair that reputation or show he isn't complicit.

Edit: I should add that I went into this season liking Vettel, but his on and off track demeanour and behaviour appear to have changed this year and I don't like what I see.

[myurr]

Good that you bring up the "true face" comment. There was nothing wrong with it. If I were the target of a media campaign by Webber of that magnitude I probably would not have shown such restraint. Sebastian simply indicated that he had no comment on the whole episode and that it had changed the way he perceived his team mate. It was pretty obvious that something had changed in the relationship and it wasn't Sebastian's fault. Perhaps you want to read Jonathan Noble's comment again that Sebastian was the one who was really damaged in his reputation by the whole episode without a fault of his own.

You also fail to address the point that the intra team public media campaign was actually started by Dr Marko and Red Bull, not Mark Webber.

[myurr]

Vettel made a gesture in Turkey immediately after climbing out of his car indicating that the on track action was madness.

Whilst I'm picking on you - in the UK at least that particular gesture is used, mostly by school kids, to infer that someone has mental issues and is crazy. It is normally used in a very derisive and derogatory way and is directed at a person not an event.

[WhiteBlue]

I have said it before, that the gesture was obviously related to the team order which was miscommunicated by Pilbeam. According to Marko Pilbeam was supposed to tell Webber not to fight Vettel. I bet that Vettel was aware that the team order was given. The fact that Webber defended the racing line and did not move over for him was the obvious reason for Vettel indicating madness. He could not know at this time who had caused the madness and we don't know if the gesture was meant for someone particular. In the end it was most likely Pilbeam who screwed up Vettel, the team and to some degree Webber who also lost some potential points. At the accident scene Seb could have meant anybody including Webber and we will not know it. He kept his mouth shut about it and did his talking internally as it should be done. I wish Mark Webber would do this as well.

Flavio Briatore stands to benefit financially if Mark Webber wins the 2010 world championship, according to a German report.

Italian Briatore, the crashgate conspirator and former Renault team boss, is still the Australian Red Bull driver's manager.
And amid reports the 60-year-old is attending a string of grands prix ahead of possibly assuming a future role alongside Bernie Ecclestone, Germany's Bild newspaper gives a different theory for Briatore's presence.

Bild said Webber's contract extension for 2011 is for just 8 million euros, but that as champion the 33-year-old will be in a position to negotiate a much higher retainer, with "a 20 per cent commission for his manager".

After winning at Silverstone, and in the midst of the front wing saga, Webber revealed that he spoke to Briatore before the race "and he said 'Mark, just make a good start'."

Bild said it suspects Briatore was behind Webber's public comments including "not bad for a number two driver", and "I would never have signed a contract again for next year".

"He knows that public pressure can bring his client a better deal," said the newspaper.

Btw, I think the Turkey discussion has run it's course for the time being. The same old arguments from Turkey are repeated and it brings nothing new.

[myurr]

I wish Mark Webber would do this as well.

Then perhaps the team should be condemned for beginning the whole public slanging match rather than this constant blaming of Webber for starting some kind of magical psyops warfare.

Btw, I think this discussion has run it's course for the time being. The same old arguments from Turkey are repeated and it brings nothing new.

There is only one reason that Turkey is being brought up and that is because most of your opinions run counter to the events in Turkey. I'm happy to drop Turkey from the discussion but feel that there are important points that you continually fail to address:

1. It was Dr Marko and Red Bull, not Webber, that started the public war of words.
2. That the team have been shown to spread misinformation and lies about events, specifically to undermine Webber.
3. The majority of other drivers, and certainly any of the top drivers, would have reacted in the same way as Webber: fighting back in public to public criticism from their team that ran counter to public opinion; publicly expressing ones anger in order to help stop the team disadvantaging them.
3. That this whole thing isn't something magicked up by Webber to undermine Vettel, and is in fact merely a backlash to the team prioritising Vettel over Webber on more than one occasion and the behaviour of all three parties.
4. That Vettel isn't 100% blameless throughout all these events:
a) his driving prior to Turkey had been needlessly dangerous at times, such as the China pit-lane incident.
b) he was primarily to blame for the collision in Turkey. He was the driver who turned in front of the other.
c) if, as you say, he was expecting Webber to move out of the way due to team orders then he is complicit in breaking of the anti-team order rules.
d) he should have, by now, told his team and made a public statement saying that he did not want preferential treatment to the detriment of his teammate, and that both drivers should be treated 100% equally from here on in. That he hasn't shows that he is happy to accept intra-team advantage.
e) he should refrain from publicly criticising his team mate, whatever his views.

I can admit that Webber isn't whiter than white, in fact before this season I actually preferred Vettel to Webber by quite some margin, but I strongly dislike the fact that even though he is well in the championship hunt he is having to battle his team as much as his fellow competitors. The team should be helping both their drivers fight for championship glory not holding one back to the advantage of the other. To me that cheapened many of Schumacher's achievements, and it will do the same to Vettel should the situation not change.

Can you admit that Vettel is not blameless?

Edit: You've added in a quote from the German gutter press about Briatore. What on earth has that got to do with anything?

[forty-two]

Sorry to be so late on the case with this one, but this thread moves fast!

If Mark imagines a conspiracy between us and Vettel to disadvantage him he is barking up the wrong tree. If I were Vettel I would have the contrary impression.

Really?

Which driver's car was always breaking down?

Shocking comment! Glad I'm not an engineer on that team, comments like that wouldn't do my motivation any good at all.

Did Mark forget the broken spark plug in Bahrain

Which failed apparently not due to something the team decided to do, but rather was a mechanical failure attributed first to the engine manufacturer and then to the spark plug manufacturer. Not a result of a measured decision made by the team.

the loose wheel in Australia,

Not a result of a measured decision made by the team.

the incorrectly adjusted damper

Not a result of a measured decision made by the team.

the broken brake disk in Barcelona,

Not a result of a measured decision made by the team.

the defect chassis in Monaco,

Hasn't this chassis been given to Webber now? Still, not a result of a decision made by the team

the leaking gear box in Montreal

Not a result of a measured decision made by the team.

the collapsed nose box in Silverstone?

Not a result of a measured decision made by the team.

Compared with that (list of failures) Mark has been extremely lucky.

All of the above are as a result of unforeseen failures of equipment and NOT as a result of a decision made by the team when they had time to consider the outcome.

Both the incident at Turkey and the "Wing-Gate" issue were the effects of decisions made by the team in Vettel's favour.

According to CH's own comments, the wing in question didn't give much of a performance advantage. Either this was a lie and he ensured that Vettel had that advantage OR it was true and he should have avoided all this public airing of laundry and put the ruddy thing back on Webber's car.

I don't hold Vettel responsible for this particular issue (wing-gate) but he did not behave in a gentlemanly way after the race, and he did a similar thing in Turkey implying that Webber was the "nutter" after he drove into him.

[forty-two]

One thing not explored very much in this debate is the possible motivation for the alleged favouritism within RBR. What factors should be considered here? Please add to this list any other factors which should be taken into account or discounted:

1. It has been speculated that the order to treat Vettel favourably might have come from the team ownership, who being Austrian might have a leaning toward a German driver.
2. I wonder if the management might simply "like" Vettel more than they like Webber?
3. Perhaps Vettel has a higher marketability if indeed he were to secure a WDC, which could reap the team better sponsor revenue?
4. Might RBR be unhappy or uncomfortable dealing with Webber's manager?
5. Might RBR be looking to encourage MW to leave in order to free up his seat for someone else? If so, who?
6. Perhaps someone within the team management has been having an affair with one or other OR BOTH of the drivers? *
7. It could be that a sponsor of the team is keen to see SV do well in order to market their products/services better.

I look forward to your thoughts on the above!

* Disclaimer - I have absolutely no reason to think this and am not accusing anyone of anything, I am merely stating that such a situation IF IT WERE TRUE could be a factor.

[vall]

One thing not explored very much in this debate is the possible motivation for the alleged favouritism within RBR. What factors should be considered here? Please add to this list any other factors which should be taken into account or discounted:

1. It has been speculated that the order to treat Vettel favourably might have come from the team ownership, who being Austrian might have a leaning toward a German driver.
2. I wonder if the management might simply "like" Vettel more than they like Webber?
3. Perhaps Vettel has a higher marketability if indeed he were to secure a WDC, which could reap the team better sponsor revenue?
4. Might RBR be unhappy or uncomfortable dealing with Webber's manager?
5. Might RBR be looking to encourage MW to leave in order to free up his seat for someone else? If so, who?
6. Perhaps someone within the team management has been having an affair with one or other OR BOTH of the drivers? *
7. It could be that a sponsor of the team is keen to see SV do well in order to market their products/services better.

I look forward to your thoughts on the above!

* Disclaimer - I have absolutely no reason to think this and am not accusing anyone of anything, I am merely stating that such a situation IF IT WERE TRUE could be a factor.

I think 1,2,4,5,6 can be safely dis-counted. I think RBR should get rid of Marko,the sooner the better

[Mysticf1]

3 is definitely plausible... just take a quick look at the Redbull online store, the vast number of Vettel specific items compared to Webber is striking.

Another point worth noting...i believe Redbull are worried about losing Vettel to another team at the end of his current contract...not long after Turkey they made announcements they would like to lock him into a much longer term contract..which doesnt seem to have materialised...if indeed the golden boy is schu jnr they want him there as long as possible.